Instantaneous sanctification-being made holy

[Smalcald]

Are we saying that through faith in Christ our sins are blotted out or are we saying that after having faith in Christ we have no sin anymore and thus no need to repent in the future as we are now sinless beings?

[JCISGD]

Are we saying that through faith in Christ our sins are blotted out or are we saying that after having faith in Christ we have no sin anymore and thus no need to repent in the future as we are now sinless beings?

Hi Smd, i am saying that by a second work of God we can be entirely sanctified (without sin) in this life, and this occurring instantly.

I am not saying that person cannot sin in the future and therefore need to repent, but that in those examples known to us (cheifly the Apostle paul) we can see that they did not sin after being entirely sanctified as also had no need to repent of anything. Paul said he was holy and just without fault having a clear conscience before both man and God, we can see here that he was challenging any man to accuse him of sin, and also saying God had no charge against him also.

I am not saying that this is possible in our own strength nor that we are passive in being made holy.

I reject the claim of being positionally holy while having sin in our heart at the same time. God calls a spade a spade, and we are only holy if we are without sin.

I am not saying i am entirely sanctified, but i think Brenda50 has made claim to it. I have yet to discuss if she is claiming positionally as i reject or experientially as i affirm atleast possible even if no one in our age lays claim to it.

[Smalcald]

H JC,

Under your understanding can we have periods or moments of our life that are indeed without knowledge of sin or once this second work happens are we without sin for our entire life until death?

My concern about some of this is not that it is not possible, I am not sure about that, but that it could lead me astray, as we know from scripture that we can be horrible sinners and yet not even know it until it is pointed out either by scripture or the Holy Spirit or both. But it would seem extremely spiritually dangerous to live in un-repented sin while believing we were holy, it seems something that would be quite easy in fact to believe and lead to extreme spiritual pride, or could lead to that?

Anyway I will continue to study on this topic a little.

I do see some scriptural support for some of this, but not all. But what is the safest thing for our soul? To believe we are sinners in need of the grace of God and in need of repentance and tears for our sins, when in fact being utterly holy, or believing we were holy when in fact we have sin in our life?

[KC02]

Oh I've been to many, many "holiness" churches that teach exactly what you are teaching here. Perhaps those people are more abstentious than other Christian groups. However this teaching isn't bringing revival within itself.

When we teach that we are perfect we are liars (1 Jn 1:8). Lying doesn't bring revival. You also stated that you may not be completely sanctified. Well -- it appears to be an either / or deal (instantaneous sanctification).

Well are ya or aren't ya?

Frankly, I think we put too much emphases on such things. We spend too much time building up or tearing down doctrines. I believe we have as much revival as we want in the church right now. The chief problem is that we are complacent and thus, do not seek God.

Two thirds of the church world doesn't have a clue as to what revival is. It's not an advertisement in the local paper or a sign on the lawn. I firmly believe revival brings about sanctification. Maybe you are putting the cart in front of the horse?

The truth is we will never be good enough or self-righteous enough to cause spontaneous revival in the church. Your thesis needs a little bit more work.

God Bless!

KC

hi Brenda i tried to send you a pm, but i was unable due to error. It is very sad that Christians on the whole reject Instantaneous and entire sanctification, and it is i think the reason the Church is so limited in the great commision. If Christians would just remain open minded and let go of their "sacred cows" and false idols we would see revival.

While not wanting to be antagonistic i do hope we can stir some new interest on this topic and glorify Jesus in His power to redeem fully.

God bless,

Arthur.

[JCISGD]

Smd i can fully understand any scepticism or trepedation about the reality of this claim in the light that so few in the body of Christtoday have even heard about, let alone are actualy examples of it.

It is not the testimony of Paul (and others such as Wesley and Finney) that he only had periods of holiness, but that once God sanctifies us we have a changed heart that joyfully prefers obeidience and abhors the thought of disobedience in the slightest manner.

As KC points out there are many fakers out there and are in fact decieved and Lord it over those in their clutches.

The only danger would be to get into trying to twist Gods arm by trying to be good enough to get a gift He has promised freely. The Father is more willing to give us freedom from all sin, than we are to seek it.

The only condition i can see is that we seek it genuinely and that we be willing to give up our sins. But i have not experienced this so i tread lightly when instructing others.

The real danger is actually in refusing to believe God and becoming mired in our sins, our heart becoming harder and harder all the time undermining the zeal and faith of new believers, such as we once had but soon were informed "it wont last, the christian life is hard' by those who had long given up their joy, and have come back to earth so to speak, having acepted they must sin.

The other danger is that no one seeks that which is believed impossible, hence the weakness of todays church and the lack of true revival experienced by others.

[JCISGD]

hi KC, i am not entirely sanctified nor do i lay claim to it. I am only saying that it is not only possible but that God desires to freely give us it, and that revival is hindered by having no entirely sanctified souls to lead the way in fulfilling the conditions in which God promises to send revival in 2 Chron 7:14.

The four conditions are

1) That His people that are called by His name. ( Name in hebrew = character, we need to have Gods character or we are hypocrites and insincere.)

2) We must humble ourselves - God resists the proud.

3) We must pray and seek Gods face. - this is not a lukewarm rote praying and seeking, all the time hiding our sins, it is the fervent effectual prayer of the

righteous man that avails much.

4) We must turn from our wicked ways. Note it is not the world that must turn from their wicked ways, but His people. To turn we must first admit, confess what

what is wicked in our assemblies, i.e lack of love, stinginess, adulteries, lying, defrauding our neighbour etc. The churches i know of preach topical sermons

and if they preach against sin, they stop short of naming them specifically and urging immediate repentance, the pastors a often mired in them as well.

Mostly i see christians who quote 1-3 but fumble on 4, myself included, but God will not hear from heaven and heal our land ( send revival ) if we neglect any one of the above.

I would say that anyone who was living all of the above would most likely have been entirely sanctified by God, they certainly must have forsaken ALL their wicked ways, which would be tantamount to be living without disobedience and therefore without sin.

Let us not be put off by so called holiness churches and hypocrites, where ever the counterfiet exists the true also exist.

I am an evanglist by gifting, and this gift can used to promote any cause/doctrine reguardless of my actual experience or faith in the product, however give me a nugget from God and zeal will run the race to the finish.

[OneLight]

One can not change a church. One needs to first have God change them and pray that they can be an example. Sanctification is not for the church, being a gathering of those who call themselves Christians, but for the individual. When people make sanctification for a body of believers, they will always fail. It is personal.

[Smalcald]

Jc,

How would you know that you are fully without sin?

I can know for example that I am unaware of any direct and open rebellion against the ten commandments, I can get that and I see that the Holy Spirit can give us that. But this is more surface, how about sinning by omission, or sinning in the way Christ has spoken of in our heart, (lust, anger,) and the worst of all pride? Do I really love my neighbor as myself, or am I just feeling good about being saved...which is GREAT an we should feel good about that, but it is not the same as having no sin. Do you see what I mean?

Now on the other hand I think we need to talk about holiness more often and we need to realistically look at striving for holiness and making real progress, also not cutting people down who are really striving with the help of the holy spirit to live holy lives, this is a good thing, not a bad thing. I agree it does no good to simply say well we all sin and lets just live with that, I have fallen into that trap sometimes.

[kross]

Not having obtained perfection here is not to be understood as an admission of sin, and it is stretching the laws of interpetation. .

Paul is saying that there is room for growth in his calling and completing what he had begun.

I have presented my veiw that holiness in us, is not being holy in the quantity (infinite holiness)of God, but is holy in the quality of Gods holiness.

being holy is living by and within the grace God provides, as opposed to living in disobedience to the light and grace provided.

FoC is wasnt using a spiritual threat to you. I was sharing the realisation as i posted that we ALL need to be careful, and i erased some of my own uncalled for remarks.

Blessings my friend.

I think you mis-understand what Holy means. It is a word that means seperate, or separated unto GOD. When one walks holy before GOD and men, it means that GOD and men see that he is seperated onto GOD.

Holy does not mean sactified.

[KC02]

JCISGD, at least you are honest about sanctification. I've said before that the instantaneous sanctification crowd aren't even honest with themselves. It's nice to debate with this level of honesty.

First, I don't believe the holiness churches I have visited in the past are hypocrites. Not at all. They sincerely believe sanctification exactly like you teach it. And they tried to live it.

I have a great video of a revival at a Wesleyan college in Wilmore Ky back in the 70's. Actually I found some of it here: *edit links*

Revival came because a few students were seeking God, not because of hyper-holiness. A characteristic of this revival was that it brought repentance and sanctification. Sanctification didn't bring revival, but revival brought sanctification.

I think we could learn a lot from this video. In any case, it is an amazing story.

4) We must turn from our wicked ways. Note it is not the world that must turn from their wicked ways, but His people.

According to this verse, Christians are to forsake sin. The Bible didn't say to pray a prayer and all sin will leave and we will never again have any problems with it.

I believe from the Bible, that sanctification takes teamwork with God. Part of it is our own doings, along with prayer and the power God has given us as Christians. Sanctification doesn't just fall out of the sky. It is progressive, not instantaneous. Check out 1 Jn 2:1 & Heb 12:1 and point out the part about instantaneous perfection.

It's not there. There is no Biblical support for such a doctrine.

hi KC, i am not entirely sanctified nor do i lay claim to it. I am only saying that it is not only possible but that God desires to freely give us it, and that revival is hindered by having no entirely sanctified souls to lead the way in fulfilling the conditions in which God promises to send revival in 2 Chron 7:14.

The four conditions are

1) That His people that are called by His name. ( Name in hebrew = character, we need to have Gods character or we are hypocrites and insincere.)

2) We must humble ourselves - God resists the proud.

3) We must pray and seek Gods face. - this is not a lukewarm rote praying and seeking, all the time hiding our sins, it is the fervent effectual prayer of the

righteous man that avails much.

4) We must turn from our wicked ways. Note it is not the world that must turn from their wicked ways, but His people. To turn we must first admit, confess what

what is wicked in our assemblies, i.e lack of love, stinginess, adulteries, lying, defrauding our neighbour etc. The churches i know of preach topical sermons

and if they preach against sin, they stop short of naming them specifically and urging immediate repentance, the pastors a often mired in them as well.

Mostly i see christians who quote 1-3 but fumble on 4, myself included, but God will not hear from heaven and heal our land ( send revival ) if we neglect any one of the above.

I would say that anyone who was living all of the above would most likely have been entirely sanctified by God, they certainly must have forsaken ALL their wicked ways, which would be tantamount to be living without disobedience and therefore without sin.

Let us not be put off by so called holiness churches and hypocrites, where ever the counterfiet exists the true also exist.

I am an evanglist by gifting, and this gift can used to promote any cause/doctrine reguardless of my actual experience or faith in the product, however give me a nugget from God and zeal will run the race to the finish.