Homosexuality and evolution

[Guest shiloh357]

I am confused by the phrase "the animal world in general" since there is no natural predisposition for homosexuality in the "animal world in general."

Then you aren't well acquainted with the natural world. Have you never seen a dog attempt to copulate with another male dog, or a chair or someones leg? There are numerous examples in the animal kingdom of homosexual acts, what you generally don't find is exclusively homosexual populations.

That is pure baloney. I have a cousin who is a zoologist and has had to dispell that myth a number of times. The dogs are not attempting to copulate. It is an attempt to assert domination, an attempt to establish itself as a the alpha male.

Exactly, it is still an act of a sexual nature with a member of the same gender, thus by definition is an homosexual act.

Or are you saying that if a man has sex with another man but isn't actually trying to get him pregnant then he isn't a homosexual?

No it is not an act of sexual nature. The dog is not attempting to have sex with the other dog. You are really stretching it. Dogs will try to climb the back of another dog, both from behind and in some rare cases from the side. It is an attempt to get the other male to submit to its rank. In some cases, a fight will ensue. You are completely misreading it. Try using some common sense.

It is no different than why dogs try to lick your face. It is not an act of love, but of domination. Two dogs will laying together side by side in the backyar and one dog will have its paw on the back or the neck of the other dog. It is an attempt to express dominance and rank in the pack. It is also why your dog always tries to walk ahead of you when you take it out for a stroll. It is establishing alpha status.

[MorningGlory]

We have a consciousness that separates us from animals, unlike animals we are not complete slaves to our genetics.

Very astute, NC. You have just described the soul, endowed us by the Creator.

[Axxman]

Then you aren't well acquainted with the natural world. Have you never seen a dog attempt to copulate with another male dog, or a chair or someones leg? There are numerous examples in the animal kingdom of homosexual acts, what you generally don't find is exclusively homosexual populations.

Actually, all you are doing is giving animals a human disposition about sexual acts. It is poor science to read human motivations and sentiments into animal behavior. It just doesn't work like that. An animal using a sexual act as a form of domination or leadership is NOT homosexuality...and quite frankly I would expect that homosexuals would be offended by the comparison.

Furthermore, I think using animal behavior as a measure for how humans should act is a bad idea.

[nebula]

I'm not aware that any conclusive specific genes have been found confirming the genetic nature of homosexuality. I'd expect there to be some genetic link, for example, many who identify as homosexual have differing levels of various hormones compared to those identifying as heterosexual. Hormone production goes back to genetic makeup. Whether genetics can provide a cause or whether it just gives a predisposition, the magnitude of the genetic link is something that I think wil be debated and examined for some time yet.

It seems though that you are confusing evolution for a form of morality. Some animals have evolved to kill their mate after copulation, that doesn't mean it is right for humans to do so though. Pianahs in a feeding frenzy generally don't bite other piranahs, but this isn't because they have a moral objection to it and we don't base our idea of not harming another human on the evolution of piranahs. We have a consciousness that separates us from animals, unlike animals we are not complete slaves to our genetics. Science isn't in the business of right and wrong though, that is for philosophers. Science can attempts to explain why and how things function the way they do, not whether is it right or wrong that they function the way they do.

Once AGAIN -

The question is over whether or not homosexuality will promote or defeat the survival of the species.

HOW DIFFICULT IS THIS QUESTION??!!!

(and yes I am shouting....)

[Guest shiloh357]

I am confused by the phrase "the animal world in general" since there is no natural predisposition for homosexuality in the "animal world in general."

Then you aren't well acquainted with the natural world. Have you never seen a dog attempt to copulate with another male dog, or a chair or someones leg? There are numerous examples in the animal kingdom of homosexual acts, what you generally don't find is exclusively homosexual populations.

That is pure baloney. I have a cousin who is a zoologist and has had to dispell that myth a number of times. The dogs are not attempting to copulate. It is an attempt to assert domination, an attempt to establish itself as a the alpha male.

Exactly, it is still an act of a sexual nature with a member of the same gender, thus by definition is an homosexual act.

Or are you saying that if a man has sex with another man but isn't actually trying to get him pregnant then he isn't a homosexual?

No it is not an act of sexual nature. The dog is not attempting to have sex with the other dog. You are really stretching it. Dogs will try to climb the back of another dog, both from behind and in some rare cases from the side. It is an attempt to get the other male to submit to its rank. In some cases, a fight will ensue. You are completely misreading it. Try using some common sense.

It is no different than why dogs try to lick your face. It is not an act of love, but of domination. Two dogs will laying together side by side in the backyar and one dog will have its paw on the back or the neck of the other dog. It is an attempt to express dominance and rank in the pack. It is also why your dog always tries to walk ahead of you when you take it out for a stroll. It is establishing alpha status.

It doesn't matter whether the intent is love or domination, if the alpha ejaculates, it is a sexual act. Now in general, as I have already stated, animals generally aren't exclusively homosexual in that most dogs or any other animal will usually copulate with a member of the opposite gender if the opportunity presents.

You don't know what you are talking about. You are simply assigning human values to animals.

My male dog which was neudered and had no sexual capacity still climbed up on other dogs. The purpose was not to have sex with the other dogs but to establish himself as the leader of the pack.

[DC10]

You're right of course, it doesn't seem to make sense at all.

However, in the real world it's perhaps not that simple. Mark Henderson (2009; "50 Genetics ideas", Quercus) cites a 2004 study by Camperio-Ciani of the University of Padua. Camperio-Ciani investigated the extended families of 98 homosexula and 100 heterosexual men. He found that the female relatives of homosexuals were significantly more fertile.

IF there's a genetic component, and IF that component were present in the females, and was heritable, etc, perhaps this could make some sort of evolutionary sense?

[DC10]

Homosexuality is a dead-end street in every scientific scenario.

I agree. That's why I am trying to determine the position of those who believe in evolution on this matter.

Since the scientific community has deemed homosexuality as "natural" and "genetic."

Could you provide a reference for the "genetic" bit? I thought the evidence for a genetic component was recognised to be weak, at best.

[Gauntlet]

Hunter that sounds like a really scary movie.... ugh. I don't think homosexuality and evolution have anything to do with each other - I just think that we are exposed to it more and more than ever because people are coming .. out.... of wherever they've been. I do not think the survival of the species is in danger...

On a more serious note. Homosexual behavior is a choice. And yeah, it would make a great scary sick movie....wonder why the folks in Hollywood have not put this into production yet

If homosexual behaviour is a choice, does that mean heterosexual behaviour is a also choice? It's the behaviour and not the inclination that is judged, right? I wil be truthful and say that I do experience brief flashes of homosexual ideation from time to time, but not nearly enough to cast doubt on my heterosexuality. I know for certain that I am heterosexual.

[nebula]

I was wondering from those of you here who are more science-minded.

Would you say that homosexuality makes evolutionary sense, or that its prevalence would lead to the end of the species?

So how come no one can actually answer the question?

[Hunterpoet]

I was wondering from those of you here who are more science-minded.

Would you say that homosexuality makes evolutionary sense, or that its prevalence would lead to the end of the species?

So how come no one can actually answer the question?

gee Neb, I thought I did. In my first response I stated that would eventually become a severe minority( as they are today) or become extinct.