Alcohol

[Shiloh62]

On the Rum and Coke discussion.

I make no judgments. However I think that to be used in a non-sinful way, alcohol should be taken because you honestly like the taste, just like any other food or drink. Wine and some beers compliment many foods very well and really in my opinion taste good, plus one glass of wine is healthy for an adult. But when we use wine or beer or hard liquor (which did not exist in the time of Christ) for the buzz or high, then I honestly think this can be seen as a sinful use of fermented drink. This is why going to a bar simply to "drink" is a major problem. Is it drunkenness? I don't know why find out?

But this is no different from any other food or drink. If we gorge ourselves on meat or food in general we are gluttons, also heavily warned against in scripture.

We just have to look at our own conscience and consider what we are doing. Many people in the US simply should not drink at all.

Christian behavior IS about moderation in all we do, something Americans have a hard time with be it food, alcohol, sex, etc. All can be used in sinful ways and all can be used in God pleasing ways. I wonder if this is why so many kids and teens that grow up seeing alcohol as some sort of evil substance that is a BIG deal some sort of forbidden fruit; and never see it used in a God pleasing way, have so much trouble with alcohol in their young adult life?

So true, smalcald. Oftentimes those that drink are doing it to escape/deal with their problems, when the answer they are looking for is right here in the word.

[Servant54]

Smalcald said........

Hi Servant,

I am not assuming. Jesus specifically said that people criticized John and said he had a demon because he did not drink wine, scripture (Luke 1:15) of course follows suite in this in that it says that John is to not drink wine or any other fermented drink. So we see that wine in this context is considered a fermented drink. I am not assuming, I am simply reading scripture. The wine that John was abstaining from was indeed fermented wine. When Jesus says in Luke:

Answer...always check the Greek...... it is AND not OR....... kai.

I will be back tomorrow have to run.

Hi Servant,

Yes that would strengthen the argument it does not change anything, particularly when it says "any other fermented drink".

Look to the plain meaning of scripture, wine is wine.

The Greek does not say "any other fermented drink" it says oivov kai o'ikepa " wine and strong drink"

Yes wine is wine...but wine is not always alcoholic finished wine as you ASSUME. Wine in the New Testament is a product that is NOT finished but is STARTING to ferment in the parable of the wine skins, that is just one BIBLICAL example of a contradiction to what you just stated. It might have a slight amount of alcohol but the wine skin would burst way before it was complete.

All grape products are called wine when the NT describes what the Nazerite John is NOT supported to drink/eat. The word is show to be a generic word to describe what is listed in the OT in the case of Sampson, raisins, grape juice, alcoholic wine etc.

You show a complete ignorance of history. Many historians of bible times talk about wine that is non alcoholic. Do the research and then be honest.

Here is one, I could give many examples but I would be one finger typing all day

Nicander says: "and Aeneus, having squeezed the juice into a hollow cups, called it wine (oinion)"- Nott, p78 "TheGreeks as well as the Hebrews called the fresh juice wine" Nott, London Ed. p 78. Bible Wines by William Patton

Have a nice weekend.

[Guest LadyC]

have you considered, rather than being condescending to anyone who disagrees with you, just accepting the fact that you're understanding of scripture is not going to be the understanding that most have of scripture? and when i say accepting, i mean leave it in God's hands to change their opinion or not, as He sees fit, and quit trying to bully people into accepting your view as the correct one. because in the end, it's not your responsibility to change anyone's mind about this, nor is it your place to judge them according to your understanding. and when you try to force people to seeing things your way, or pass judgment on them for it, that isn't glorifying to God nor edifying to the body. that's why scripture tells us to take the plank out of our own eye before examining the speck in our brother's eye... because we get so caught up in telling them how wrong they are, that we fall into sinful attitudes or behaviours ourselves.

[pokemaughan]

... that's why scripture tells us to take the plank out of our own eye before examining the speck in our brother's eye... because we get so caught up in telling them how wrong they are, that we fall into sinful attitudes or behaviours ourselves.

Exactly! By no means of our own can we change a person- it is only through the Spirit and God's grace that we're changed... not a man's words. If the square won't fit into the triangle slot the first time... probably won't fit in the 23rd time...

I'm not necessarily saying I disagree with either of you, but a man can only do so much... maybe Servant isn't the proper tool for this job. (more analogies...) Or maybe the screw is just stuck. Who knows, but don't strip the screw, eh?

[Believer1997]

LadyC, I agree with your assessment here. No one needs to use condescension to attempt to establish or further their point... which just may be incorrect to begin with... Blessings.

[Guest man]

have you considered, rather than being condescending to anyone who disagrees with you, just accepting the fact that you're understanding of scripture is not going to be the understanding that most have of scripture? and when i say accepting, i mean leave it in God's hands to change their opinion or not, as He sees fit, and quit trying to bully people into accepting your view as the correct one. because in the end, it's not your responsibility to change anyone's mind about this, nor is it your place to judge them according to your understanding. and when you try to force people to seeing things your way, or pass judgment on them for it, that isn't glorifying to God nor edifying to the body. that's why scripture tells us to take the plank out of our own eye before examining the speck in our brother's eye... because we get so caught up in telling them how wrong they are, that we fall into sinful attitudes or behaviours ourselves.

Thank you, I needed to hear that.

[Smalcald]

Smalcald said........

Hi Servant,

I am not assuming. Jesus specifically said that people criticized John and said he had a demon because he did not drink wine, scripture (Luke 1:15) of course follows suite in this in that it says that John is to not drink wine or any other fermented drink. So we see that wine in this context is considered a fermented drink. I am not assuming, I am simply reading scripture. The wine that John was abstaining from was indeed fermented wine. When Jesus says in Luke:

Answer...always check the Greek...... it is AND not OR....... kai.

I will be back tomorrow have to run.

Hi Servant,

Yes that would strengthen the argument it does not change anything, particularly when it says "any other fermented drink".

Look to the plain meaning of scripture, wine is wine.

The Greek does not say "any other fermented drink" it says oivov kai o'ikepa " wine and strong drink"

Yes wine is wine...but wine is not always alcoholic finished wine as you ASSUME. Wine in the New Testament is a product that is NOT finished but is STARTING to ferment in the parable of the wine skins, that is just one BIBLICAL example of a contradiction to what you just stated. It might have a slight amount of alcohol but the wine skin would burst way before it was complete.

All grape products are called wine when the NT describes what the Nazerite John is NOT supported to drink/eat. The word is show to be a generic word to describe what is listed in the OT in the case of Sampson, raisins, grape juice, alcoholic wine etc.

You show a complete ignorance of history. Many historians of bible times talk about wine that is non alcoholic. Do the research and then be honest.

Here is one, I could give many examples but I would be one finger typing all day

Nicander says: "and Aeneus, having squeezed the juice into a hollow cups, called it wine (oinion)"- Nott, p78 "TheGreeks as well as the Hebrews called the fresh juice wine" Nott, London Ed. p 78. Bible Wines by William Patton

Have a nice weekend.

Well I have done the research, so sorry about that. The consensus opinion without a doubt among bible scholars and historians is that the wine Jesus drank, that the early followers drank, that King David drank, etc; was fermented, was wine, the plain words of scripture are indeed true. Indeed the research shows and anybody who is simply reading scripture without an agenda would see that in the passage from Luke, Jesus was talking about fermented wine. Why else would they have mocked Him as a drunkard and a person who hung with tax collectors? He did hang out with tax collectors, it would make no sense to mock Him as a drunkard if He had one glass of grape juice. John on the other hand abstianed from Wine and they said he had a demon. The people were not happy either way, much like today.

Now was wine at different levels of fermentation, some almost having none? Sure it was a popular drink there were many many varieties and grapes were an important part of the economy. It does not really matter because you see if wine was non-alcoholic there would be no warnings against being drunk on wine in the bible. Your logic makes no sense on this matter at all.

I think the problem comes when we have dietary doctrines such as saying that drinking one drop of wine is a sin, which are not backed by scripture, and were the result of more recent ideas with an agenda such as the temperance movement etc; and then we go looking desperately in scripture for support we get tangled up. I mean your example in Proverbs fully points this out. You claim that any wine is sin by using a passage in Proverbs which talks of gazing on wine, when in the same passage two versus earlier Proverbs states not to drink too much wine.

That is fine for you to hold that drinking any wine is sin, but most biblical scholarship does not back this up and of course there are NO other dietary restrictions that Christians must follow, and scripture does not support this sort of "command" either.

[Guest man]

You show a complete ignorance of history. Many historians of bible times talk about wine that is non alcoholic. Do the research and then be honest.

Proverbs 11:2

When pride comes, then comes shame; But with the humble is wisdom.

Proverbs 16:18

Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall.

Proverbs 8:13

The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate.

1 Samuel 2:3

[Servant54]

Hi Servant,

I think a bigger assumption is hanging your entire view on those passages from Prov. Let us look;

Do not join those who drink too much wine

or gorge themselves on meat,

21 for drunkards and gluttons become poor,

and drowsiness clothes them in rags.

31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red,

when it sparkles in the cup,

when it goes down smoothly!

So we are not to drink too much wine. Okay in the same passage, we see what you are saying from verse 31 prohibits wine! This makes no sense at all, and really it is as if you are looking for the support for a question you have already decided on the answer for. I know that this has been doctrine taught in some sects, but it is just that doctrine which was developed in the 19th century to support the temperance movement in the US. It is not scriptural any more than telling Christians that they cannot eat pork or shellfish.

Smalcald,

First of all, thank you for acknowledging this text in Proverbs..it seems everyone wanted to ignore it.

The text is between a father and his son.

What is he asking his son in the context of "do not look" what does this phase mean? We have to have some interpretation of this phase.

The next point is the term "at the last" this infers there is a "at the first" which is described before it. That is what we are dealing with, not what happens later. Two stages..the first and the last, everything that has a last has a first, middle and last...see?

Wine does not bite at first is what it is saying..so looking on it is the first thing we do and it says DO NOT DO IT. Do not go there in other words.

Now everyone wants to give this some interpretation that does not say do not PARTAKE. If I say do not look at a Harlot what does that say to you?(see earlier text)

There is a contrast to the text..the "ways of the father" verses the way of the "sinner"..the father says in verse 26 "observe my ways" and then 5 verses later says" do not look on the wine" a definite contrast.

I will deal with this more..off to work

Pro 23:23 Buy the truth and sell it not

[Servant54]

You show a complete ignorance of history. Many historians of bible times talk about wine that is non alcoholic. Do the research and then be honest.

Proverbs 11:2

When pride comes, then comes shame; But with the humble is wisdom.

Proverbs 16:18

Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall.

Proverbs 8:13

The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate.

1 Samuel 2:3