Alcohol

[Believer1997]

Servant,

You need to do some serious soul-searching and I will pray for you also....

[Smalcald]

Stating that it is a sin to have a glass of wine is placing a stumbling block in front of your brother and sister. If drinking causes you to loose your self-control and sin, then don't drink, period.

I have a slightly different interpretation on the Romans verses. We know the stronger brother finds permissible something that the weaker brother finds to be a sin, right? I just don't think the weaker brother sees the stronger brother as someone who is actually stronger. The weaker brother sees the stonger brother as being weaker. The weaker brother witnessing the act doesn't then decide to partake in whatever it is he thinks is sin - this is not where he stumbles. He decides to JUDGE the stronger brother for his decision. So if we do something permissible in front of him we may put him into judgement mode, which is not a good place to put someone who is weaker.

Basically what I said, but in more words.

1 Corinthians 8:9

But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak.

Yes, to me this is the biggest issue, at least for me personally. It is why I won't go to a bar or nightclub, not necessarily because I feel walking into such a place is a sin, but what message does it send and how does it help those who struggle with addiction?

We are on stage if we are public with our faith, (as we should be), people do watch what we do. In general I don't care what other people think of me, however there are some that I really do, teenagers, those on the verge of conversion, those who are fallen away or almost there.

[Axxman]

Any time wine was used in a good context, or where its clear a believer is using it will be automatically changed to 'grape juice'. Any time wine was used in a bad context it is 'wine'.

Yes...because reading and interpreting the bible based on the context is an outdated and unpopular way to do things...

lol

[artsylady]

I might fit in here, I've never been sane

That's good! That will definitely help. And welcome to WB!

[Axxman]

First of all...the entire idea of judging someone on their street ministry techniques is WAY OFF TOPIC! I am not sure why Servant keeps bringing it up...and I am less sure as to why people want to latch onto it and criticize him for how he feels led to do it.

Oh wait...maybe its because it will be easier to disregard his stance on the biblical meaning of wine if you paint him out to be some lunatic. I can't even believe someone stooped so low as to actually suggest he may be like the "crazy Christian woman" from the every popular show "Wife Swap."

I also find it a very convenient translation for people to claim that the Romans passage isn't for the "stronger" believers...its a problem for the younger christians cuz they tend to be judgemental. The whole point is that the weaker looks to the stronger as a leader and a guide and that the stronger should bear witness for the weaker. Instead of focusing on one's own interests, each person should focus on pleasing others in a way that results in their good and which builds them up. In Romans 14, both parties were doing their actions "for the Lord." Paul reminds us that we belong to the Lord, both in life and in death. So either way, we do what we do for the Lord. Since he is Lord of both the dead and the living, we will all be judged by him. Therefore, we are not to judge each other in such matters.

So much for a "clear reading" of the scriptures...

[artsylady]

Any time wine was used in a good context, or where its clear a believer is using it will be automatically changed to 'grape juice'. Any time wine was used in a bad context it is 'wine'.

Yes...because reading and interpreting the bible based on the context is an outdated and unpopular way to do things...

No, no no dear brother. Context is EVERYTHING if you are searching for the truth.

[Smalcald]

Hi Servant.

You mentioned Proverbs 23. Indeed Proverbs is great isn't it. If nothing else this debate has gotten me reading Proverbs again. Now I know you said I broke a command of God when I had one glass of wine with dinner. I guess you would say that I sin every time I take communion each week? But anyway when I read the entire verse below as you suggested and meditate on it, I see a very good description of gluttony and addiction, it is extremely insightful. If you have ever been around people who have a problem with food or alcohol you would see what I mean, they have a fascination with the substance, the "gaze upon it". But the command that I read that has application to our discussion is verse 20 and 21. Anyway it is just one of those cases that two Christians look at the exact same scripture and come up with different things.

Peace.

1 When you sit to dine with a ruler,

note well what [a] is before you,

2 and put a knife to your throat

if you are given to gluttony.

3 Do not crave his delicacies,

for that food is deceptive.

4 Do not wear yourself out to get rich;

have the wisdom to show restraint.

5 Cast but a glance at riches, and they are gone,

for they will surely sprout wings

and fly off to the sky like an eagle.

6 Do not eat the food of a stingy man,

do not crave his delicacies;

7 for he is the kind of man

who is always thinking about the cost.

"Eat and drink," he says to you,

but his heart is not with you.

8 You will vomit up the little you have eaten

and will have wasted your compliments.

9 Do not speak to a fool,

for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.

10 Do not move an ancient boundary stone

or encroach on the fields of the fatherless,

11 for their Defender is strong;

he will take up their case against you.

12 Apply your heart to instruction

and your ears to words of knowledge.

13 Do not withhold discipline from a child;

if you punish him with the rod, he will not die.

14 Punish him with the rod

and save his soul from death. [c]

15 My son, if your heart is wise,

then my heart will be glad;

16 my inmost being will rejoice

when your lips speak what is right.

17 Do not let your heart envy sinners,

but always be zealous for the fear of the LORD.

18 There is surely a future hope for you,

and your hope will not be cut off.

19 Listen, my son, and be wise,

and keep your heart on the right path.

20 Do not join those who drink too much wine

or gorge themselves on meat,

21 for drunkards and gluttons become poor,

and drowsiness clothes them in rags.

22 Listen to your father, who gave you life,

and do not despise your mother when she is old.

23 Buy the truth and do not sell it;

get wisdom, discipline and understanding.

24 The father of a righteous man has great joy;

he who has a wise son delights in him.

25 May your father and mother be glad;

may she who gave you birth rejoice!

26 My son, give me your heart

and let your eyes keep to my ways,

27 for a prostitute is a deep pit

and a wayward wife is a narrow well.

28 Like a bandit she lies in wait,

and multiplies the unfaithful among men.

29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow?

Who has strife? Who has complaints?

Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes?

30 Those who linger over wine,

who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.

31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red,

when it sparkles in the cup,

when it goes down smoothly!

32 In the end it bites like a snake

and poisons like a viper.

33 Your eyes will see strange sights

and your mind imagine confusing things.

34 You will be like one sleeping on the high seas,

lying on top of the rigging.

35 "They hit me," you will say, "but I'm not hurt!

They beat me, but I don't feel it!

When will I wake up

so I can find another drink?"

[Shiloh62]

Your right! There is so much wisdom in Proverbs, and so many answers to life's difficult questions.

[artsylady]

Oh wait...maybe its because it will be easier to disregard his stance on the biblical meaning of wine if you paint him out to be some lunatic. I can't even believe someone stooped so low as to actually suggest he may be like the "crazy Christian woman" from the every popular show "Wife Swap."

Like I said, I hope he doesn't resemble this woman at all, but I do wonder. There do happen to be many Christians out there behaving this way.

And yes, he does keep bringing up street preaching a lot which is off topic, hense the reason we seem to get off topic.

And to you, one more time Brother Axxman, since I've asked a multitude of times now with no answer.... With hundreds of references to wine why didn't God just say "Don't drink alcoholic wine" even once?

We see clear rules against it for kings, priests when they are in the holiest of holies and for Nazarites, but nothing clearly against some for the rest. Please try to answer.

No one answered why deacons can't be given to MUCH "grape juice." I think older women are also told the same - not too much "grape juice" Why do you think Deacons aren't supposed to drink a lot of "grape juice". Do tell!

[Servant54]

servant, please tell me what the heck "Xian" is?

Sorry it is a short version of Christian. X is Greek for Christ. I do not even know I am writing that sometimes, I am on my bible college alumni discussion board and everyone knows what it means..picked in up during bible college note taking.

Just cut down a twenty foot hedge to ten feet tall..came in for a break