Harming Animals

[Axxman]

Even animals killed for the sacrifices were killed in the most humane way by draining the blood. The whole point of sacrificing a lamb was because it was completely innocent and incapable of sin

The thing about cruelty to animals is that it is a sign of something much more sinister. Most cops will tell you that people who cruelly kill animals need to be taken very seriously because they have the capacity to become heartless murderers

Not to put to fine of a point on it...but all sheep are innocent and incapable of sin, not just lambs. And why is that? Because they are animals. It is merely symbolic. And while the chosen method of death may be the 'most humane' way of killing a lamb...I'm still gonna go out on a limb and say that you are 'harming' the lamb by killing it.

The topic of this thread is asking if it is a sin to harm an animal? Which the OP immediately ties into harming the environment. Clearly, it is not a sin. Cruelty to animals is another topic altogether...but even cruelty is subject to human translation. PETA believes that swatting flies is cruelty to animals...so we got extremes on that too.

Yes, being cruel to animals can be an indication of a person's mental state. But that is certainly not a full-proof scientific thing by any stretch. Is a kid who sits by a lake and shoots frogs with his BB gun all day a cruel sinful person who is gonna grow up to be a serial killer?

Most cops will tell you that 'everyone' has the capacity to become a heartless murderer.

[Axxman]

I am not putting human emotions on animals. I have already stated that their expressions of emotions are far more limited than our own and have not equated them with us, but I have seen animals grieve and their grief can be every bit as real as our own. It is not purely instinct. To say that God has not given animals the ability feel pain and sadness would simply be wrong and contradicts observable behavior.

The first half of your sentence says that animal emotions are far more limited than ours and not equatable...the second half says their grief is "every bit as real as our own." Which is it? Pain is NOT an emotion for humans or animals...it is a neurological reaction to outside stimuli. Sadness is an emotion that animals do not have. If you think your pet is sad, it is merely your projection of your thoughts and observations onto them.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jun 17 2009, 04:54 AM)

As for my example, you are proving my point. You can find all kinds of Scriptures that show why setting one's self on fire is wrong. The point is you cannot find THAT particular action listed as a sin in the Bible. Therefore, you must use the existing information as the paradigm you are bringing to the action in order to address it.

You are right...there is a difference in discussing particulars and broader idea's. Because the bible broadly condemns the harming of oneself...we know that setting yourself on fire is a sin. Problem is...the bible does not broadly condemn the harming of animals...and in fact supports animal sacrifice for no other reason than spilling blood...so it is much more difficult to prove any particular sin in the 'harming' of an animal.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jun 17 2009, 04:54 AM)

Again, you can say what you want, but I have seen it for myself. You can try to come off with one your corny "know it all" explanations, but I know what I saw and what I experienced for years.

Because that is all the only place they have to go. It's not like they have the option of escaping to the wide open spaces. Those places are built to keep animals from espaping.

I have no doubt about what you saw. But you have also exhibited that you apply human emotion into animal actions...although you claim they are somehow limited. You and I just approached a similar experience in different ways. I never saw anything in any animal I've killed except for the natural fear reflex to get away from a dangerous situation. Whether it was goats, sheep, rabbits, cows, chickens...they all basically reacted with the same instincts...and thats all it was...instinct.

And obviously the animals couldn't escape...that wasn't the point. The point was that their survival instincts lasted right up until they got some food or water.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jun 17 2009, 04:54 AM)

Cruelty to animals is unGodly and there is no biblical defense for it.

Clearly...I would never argue otherwise. This thread isn't about finding a biblical defense for cruelty to animals...it isn't about cruelty to animals at all, really. The OP asked if it was a sin to 'harm' an animal. At this point I don't think anybody has shown that it is.

[Guest shiloh357]

Actually, Axx, I hope when you get to Heaven the Lord put you under the tutelage of Francis of Assissi.

"If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men."

~Francis of Assissi~

LOL...I am not a dentist..

Lets make something perfectly clear. I am NOT arguing for the abuse of animals...at all. I am merely pointing out the idea that somehow harming an animal is not a sin. The second someone claims it is a sin...then you have to start making exceptions to the 'new' rule. It is this same type of rule making that governs the pseudo-religious environmentalism that is everywhere today.

Had you bothered to read, the issue and context has been clearly established even form the OP that we are talking about abuse. Bringing harm to animal for the purposes of self-defense or hunting for food or similar situations is not what we are talking about. We are talking about people who abuse animals for sick pleasure they derive from it.

Harming an animal can be cruel or not depending on the context in which takes place.

[tah]

Aren't you guys getting tired of beating this dead horse and no pun is intended..

I do not believe there is one person here who thinks it is ok to be cruel for some kind of sick "fun" ..

Of course it is a sin to deliberately commit an act of cruelty for your personal entertainment ...

I don't care if it is a tree you are doing it to..it is the heart that is desperately wicked and the tree or the animal is not the point ..

You performing and evil act is the point .... it s sin...

Who here goes out and skins cats for fun?????

Who gets a shiver up their leg when they can cruelly hurt something???

Nary a one of you.. because you know it is wrong...

[Axxman]

Had you bothered to read, the issue and context has been clearly established even form the OP that we are talking about abuse. Bringing harm to animal for the purposes of self-defense or hunting for food or similar situations is not what we are talking about. We are talking about people who abuse animals for sick pleasure they derive from it.

Harming an animal can be cruel or not depending on the context in which takes place.

Had I bothered to read?? Thats nice...

I've read plenty...the OP is about harming an animal...like harming the environment. Any exceptions you choose to bring to the debate of 'harming' the animal (i.e. self-defense or hunting) only bolster my point...that harming an animal is not sin.

Its sounds to me like you are admitting that harming an animal is not a sin (like I said) ...but that being cruel is a sin (which NOBODY has argued against).

[Axxman]

I do not believe there is one person here who thinks it is ok to be cruel for some kind of sick "fun" ..

Exactly...totally agree! I don't think "cruelty" was the point of this thread. Nobody here has attempted to make the point that "cruelty," in any way, is appropriate.

[nebula]

I am merely pointing out the idea that somehow harming an animal is not a sin.

So all of this is over the nit-pickiness of the wordage?

Ay-yi-yi...

[Guest shiloh357]

The first half of your sentence says that animal emotions are far more limited than ours and not equatable...the second half says their grief is "every bit as real as our own." Which is it?

There is no contradiction. Saying that their grief is as real to them as it is to us, does not mean that it is the same as or equal to ours. Animals have been known grieve over deceased owners to point of sickness. It is a simple fact.

Pain is NOT an emotion for humans or animals...it is a neurological reaction to outside stimuli.

I did not say it was an emotion. Try using employing some better reading comprehension skills.

Sadness is an emotion that animals do not have. If you think your pet is sad, it is merely your projection of your thoughts and observations onto them.

Which is a load of presumptuous crap.

You are right...there is a difference in discussing particulars and broader idea's. Because the bible broadly condemns the harming of oneself...we know that setting yourself on fire is a sin. Problem is...the bible does not broadly condemn the harming of animals...and in fact supports animal sacrifice for no other reason than spilling blood...so it is much more difficult to prove any particular sin in the 'harming' of an animal.

What you seem to be ignoring is that we are talking about harming animals in the context of abuse, not harming animal in any other context. Injuring a dog in self-defense cannot be compared to putting a puppy in a microwave.

I have no doubt about what you saw. But you have also exhibited that you apply human emotion into animal actions...although you claim they are somehow limited.

Emotion is emotion. There is varying degrees of it, but emotion is emotion. I am not taking human emotions and applying them to animals. But anyone with any common sense at all can recognize fear, grief, happiness, contentment just by reading body language and behavior.

I never saw anything in any animal I've killed except for the natural fear reflex to get away from a dangerous situation. Whether it was goats, sheep, rabbits, cows, chickens...they all basically reacted with the same instincts...and thats all it was...instinct.

Instinct cannot be completely severed from emotion. Instinct is not some kind of robotic behavior, even in animals. They are not automotons.

Even in humans instinct cannot be severed from emotion. The maternal instinct in women will cause an otherwise timid and shy woman to battle to death to save her child. It will cause her anger if someone were talk disparagingly about her children. A man will react with anger if someone tried to harm his wife or kids. Those instincts in humans impact emotions.

Clearly...I would never argue otherwise. This thread isn't about finding a biblical defense for cruelty to animals...it isn't about cruelty to animals at all, really. The OP asked if it was a sin to 'harm' an animal. At this point I don't think anybody has shown that it is.

Actually, that cruelty to animals IS the issue, if you bothered to really read the thread.

You are trying refute arguments that were never raised. It is has already been made clear that no one is claiming it is wrong to kill animals for food, nor are disparaging the biblical sacrifice of animals, nor are complaining against killing rodents or harming animals in self-defense. Even in the OP the example was given was an example of abuse and cruelty i.e., shooting a cat 50 times with a an air rifle.

[irishcowboy]

I came across an horrific report of teenagers in England (on the Sky News website), shooting a cat over 50 times with an airgun. It survived. But it raised the question in me, is harming animals a sin, because this leads on to harming the environment, both of which are God's creation.

I would hazard that it is a sin, but can't think offhand of any scriptures that might directly relate.

Any ideas?

after only reading a few posts......

We (man kind) was placed on earth, to follow our makers example, to love and care for others as He cares for and loves us.

mans first job (adam) was to name the animals.....

man has dominion over all things....... just because we have dominion (given to us by God ) does not give us the right to mistreat any person or animal.

whether it be a pest, or pet, mistreating them (torture) is wrong. this can be attested to by those that mistreated Israel, they suffer the rewards for doing so. yes, God did use other nations to dominate Israel at times when Israel was not doing as they were suppose to be doing, God would have one of Israel's enemies come in and take over. if they (Israel) was treated well ( such as Egypt with Joseph) things went well, but if they (Israel) was mistreated then God took care of the offending nation as He (God) saw fit.

this can be seen even today with those that support Israel, they receive blessings, but those that go up against Israel, well, they do not do so well....

Balum mistreated his donkey, and well, if the donkey had not seen what was unseen to Balum he would have had his head parted, but the donkey knew better, even though Balum was mistreating him, he continued to protect his master, and Balum was admonished for such treatment.....

mistreating a servant was not a good thing, and some animals are servants to mankind......

after the emancipation proclamation, there were servants that loved their masters in such a way, that they took their masters last name. there were some that took the last name of some one else they respected. those that were mistreated, for the most part, did not take the last name of their master. the servants that were mistreated, a lot of them were not mistreated by their master, but the task master (which could have been another servant......

should we mistreat animals????

I say NO!!!!!!!!!!!!

should we kill an animal?

if so, for what reasons?

for fun? no,

for food, Yes,

for entertainment? no

for protection? yes.

for clothing?

for ??????????

there are many reasons, or in some cases, excuses as to why we kill animals.....

if it takes more then one, or in some cases two shots to kill an animal, it is boarding torture.

when I hunted with a muzzle loader (50 cal rifle) I also carried a 50 cal (muzzle loader) pistol as well, for if I shot and the animal was not dead, I did not want to let it suffer. my uncle was the same way, and taught me this.

abuse of any kind is not love and can not come from some one that loves..... abuse comes from selfishness, and pride, self centeredness....... whether it be animal or human abuse.....

mike

[Guest shiloh357]

Had you bothered to read, the issue and context has been clearly established even form the OP that we are talking about abuse. Bringing harm to animal for the purposes of self-defense or hunting for food or similar situations is not what we are talking about. We are talking about people who abuse animals for sick pleasure they derive from it.

Harming an animal can be cruel or not depending on the context in which takes place.

Had I bothered to read?? Thats nice...

I've read plenty...the OP is about harming an animal...like harming the environment. Any exceptions you choose to bring to the debate of 'harming' the animal (i.e. self-defense or hunting) only bolster my point...that harming an animal is not sin.

Its sounds to me like you are admitting that harming an animal is not a sin (like I said) ...but that being cruel is a sin (which NOBODY has argued against).

Right because you are trying refute an argument no one was making. We are clearly talking about cruelty and that point has been made abundantly clear. Again, you just didn't read. You reacted to what you THOUGHT the thread was addressing. The OP was clearly talking about abuse.