Christian tradition

[~Clay]

But my biggest is probably the quote that never appears in the Bible -

What the enemy intended for evil, God intended for good.

This is a misquote of Gen 50:20 where Joseph said to his brothers

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

But this is even further clarified five chapters earlier in Gen 45 where Joseph says to his brothers about their treatment of him -

vs 5 - God sent me before you to preserve life

vs 7 - God sent me before you to preserve a posterity for you

vs 8 - So it was not you who sent me here, but God

Then there are the "partial quotes" - usually of convenience.

I am not sure what your issue is here. It was the brothers that sold him into slavery. It was Potipher's wife that falsley accused him of rape. Yet the text tells us in all of this it was also God's hand at work. The principle is that God is soveriegn even over the evil intentions of other in our lives to achieve His purposes

My issue is that we often paraphrase scripture and present it as scripture.

Though you may counter with the argument that it "is just semantics," the scripture is not "what the enemy intended for evil, God intended for good." It is a paraphrase of several scriptures of dialog about the actions of only Joseph's brother's, with a belief system built into it.

Those are what concern me the most, those that include a particular belief system...

[nebula]

but that gave me pause for ponder. does "all evil" and "all kinds of evil" mean two different things? i would say so. but what is the message of the verse? the love of money causes problems and is not good. so what does this mean? that the message of the verse is the same without those words, but not the actually meaning of it? is that possible? hmm. i'm making myself dizzy. think i'll stop now!

The point, I believe, is that loving money leads to a lot of evil deeds.

However, the way the verse is often misquoted, it makes it sound like all evil in the world can be traced back to either money itself of the love of money. And that is not accurate.

[EricH]

but that gave me pause for ponder. does "all evil" and "all kinds of evil" mean two different things? i would say so. but what is the message of the verse? the love of money causes problems and is not good. so what does this mean? that the message of the verse is the same without those words, but not the actually meaning of it? is that possible? hmm. i'm making myself dizzy. think i'll stop now!

The point, I believe, is that loving money leads to a lot of evil deeds.

However, the way the verse is often misquoted, it makes it sound like all evil in the world can be traced back to either money itself of the love of money. And that is not accurate.

Exactly,

Like cleanliness is next to Godliness

[Rania]

Exactly,

Like cleanliness is next to Godliness

I've met some of the most Godly people in the slums of India. Great post, EricH!

[Rhonda Lou]

A recent post from someone looking for the scriptures that foretell the coming one-world government got me thinking about how much we abuse scripture. Why is that?

First there's the clear mythology - These are stories that we tell that we know aren't supported by scripture, like the three wise men coming to visit the baby Jesus at His birth. Nowhere does scripture state the number of maji (plural, so we only know that there was more than one) and they didn't visit the baby Jesus in the manger, they visited the child in the house! (Matt 2:9-11)

And I am so tired of hearing how Peter was "restored" three times for his denials of Christ in John Chapter 21 when it was clearly another failure on Peter's part (not to beat up on him, he just had not yet received the full measure of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost).

But my biggest is probably the quote that never appears in the Bible -

What the enemy intended for evil, God intended for good.

This is a misquote of Gen 50:20 where Joseph said to his brothers

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

But this is even further clarified five chapters earlier in Gen 45 where Joseph says to his brothers about their treatment of him -

vs 5 - God sent me before you to preserve life

vs 7 - God sent me before you to preserve a posterity for you

vs 8 - So it was not you who sent me here, but God

Then there are the "partial quotes" - usually of convenience.

Some that really bother me are:

James 4:7 - Resist the devil and he will flee from you

Rev 12:11 - And they overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony

Phil 3:10 - That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection

1 Cor 2:9 - Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor has entered into the mind of man what God has prepared for those who love him

What is wrong with those quotes?

They are incomplete!

• Submit to God, Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
  
• And they overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony and they did not love their lives to the end [other translations say - and they did not love their life even when faced with death)
  
• That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings
  
• Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor has entered into the mind of man what God has prepared for those who love him (10) but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
  

So why do we do that? Why do we have mythical stories about three wise men visiting a newly born baby Jesus, and distorted stories about Peter being restored three times by Jesus, and misquoted and incomplete scriptures that typically leave out the inconvenient parts?

This really bothers me.

So now that I have vented somewhat, is it not really a big deal?

Is it okay to be sloppy with scripture and is it just my problem that it bothers me ... ?

Are there similar examples that bother you ... ?

~clay

This is slightly off the subject of Peter, the love of money, or Joseph's statement that God meant good out of the evil, and add another one of those like "cleanliness is next to godliness." Something that has always bothered me is, "God helps those who help themselves." Actually the whole point of the Bible is that we CAN'T help ourselves, and God would like us to depend on Him. Actually, God helps those the most who cooperate and are obedient through the power of the Holy Spirit, but He does not help those who help themselves.

The aspect which bothers me the most and is related to this topic is that of Biblical illiteracy, even among Christians. I had one Christian tell me that the Bible contradicts itself because it says in one place, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth," and in another place, "Turn the other cheek." I had to let her know that it says both in the same sentence: "Ye have heard that it hath been said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth;' but I say unto you, 'That ye resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on they right cheek, turn to him the other also.'" (Matthew 5:38-39) Her reply was, "Well, you know the Bible better than I do." Then why did she even say anything? I think that this answers your other question: why do people say this stuff? It is because they hear it from others, don't check it out, and take it at face value.

There was also the Sunday school student who asked, after they showed "The Flood" on TV, why God burned down the planet before the flood? We went to the Scripture, and I asked her to show me where that happened.

Yes, I believe you have a valid point, and it irks me also.

[~Clay]

I would like to ask how did Peter fail in John 21. Peter was very careful considering his past assumptions. "I will die for You even if every one else leaves You Lord". Parapharase. (I love you way more then my bretheren, and will do anything I have to for you). Look how careful Peter was when answering the Lords question of whether Peter loves Him. Peter got off of the ground of "peter". Peter could have said Yes, Lord I love you...How? He had proven otherwise. What does he say...."Lord You know". Peter's confidience in himself was destroyed, and all he could depend on is what the Lord knew of Peter.

Now if you could show me something else, especially concerning a failure on Peters part it would be welcome.

Nebula responded very well.

I will only elaborate on her response.

Jesus - Peter, do you agapao ['truly love'] me more than these ?

Peter - Lord, you oida ['know'] I phileo ['love'] you (not agapao and not more than these)

Jesus - Peter, do you agapao ['truly love'] me?

Peter - Lord, you oida ['know'] I phileo you (not agapao)

Jesus - Peter, do you phileo me ?

Peter (greatly hurt) - Lord, you ginosko ['must be able to see'] all things that I phileo ['love'] you.

There is much going on here, setting, context, and timing are are very important to the story.

Jesus has given the disciples a command yet here they are fishing!

Jesus is teaching Peter an extremely important lesson.

Jesus is also revealing more of Himself to Peter and establishing Peter as the leader, once again.

Lot's of stuff in the story is symbolic and the language is important.

Basically, the shift in vocabulary is very indicative that, even though Jesus is working on Peter's character, and he is responding, it is not a glorious wonderful occasion where the Lord restores Peter from the previous three failures. That is my issue. Peter fails yet again here, but this time he is painfully aware of his failures and receives encouragement from the Lord at the same time.

Now, I would really like to know what the significance is resulting from the change in vocabulary of Jesus' command to Peter after each exchange !

~clay

[~Clay]

This is slightly off the subject of Peter, the love of money, or Joseph's statement that God meant good out of the evil, and add another one of those like "cleanliness is next to godliness." Something that has always bothered me is, "God helps those who help themselves." Actually the whole point of the Bible is that we CAN'T help ourselves, and God would like us to depend on Him. Actually, God helps those the most who cooperate and are obedient through the power of the Holy Spirit, but He does not help those who help themselves.

YES !!

That's another good one.

~clay

[OneLight]

What about the traditions that we still hold as true? Any of those?

[Guest Amaleah]

A recent post from someone looking for the scriptures that foretell the coming one-world government got me thinking about how much we abuse scripture. Why is that?

First there's the clear mythology - These are stories that we tell that we know aren't supported by scripture, like the three wise men coming to visit the baby Jesus at His birth. Nowhere does scripture state the number of maji (plural, so we only know that there was more than one) and they didn't visit the baby Jesus in the manger, they visited the child in the house! (Matt 2:9-11)

And I am so tired of hearing how Peter was "restored" three times for his denials of Christ in John Chapter 21 when it was clearly another failure on Peter's part (not to beat up on him, he just had not yet received the full measure of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost).

But my biggest is probably the quote that never appears in the Bible -

What the enemy intended for evil, God intended for good.

This is a misquote of Gen 50:20 where Joseph said to his brothers

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

But this is even further clarified five chapters earlier in Gen 45 where Joseph says to his brothers about their treatment of him -

vs 5 - God sent me before you to preserve life

vs 7 - God sent me before you to preserve a posterity for you

vs 8 - So it was not you who sent me here, but God

Then there are the "partial quotes" - usually of convenience.

Some that really bother me are:

James 4:7 - Resist the devil and he will flee from you

Rev 12:11 - And they overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony

Phil 3:10 - That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection

1 Cor 2:9 - Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor has entered into the mind of man what God has prepared for those who love him

What is wrong with those quotes?

They are incomplete!

• Submit to God, Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
  
• And they overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony and they did not love their lives to the end [other translations say - and they did not love their life even when faced with death)
  
• That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings
  
• Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor has entered into the mind of man what God has prepared for those who love him (10) but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
  

So why do we do that? Why do we have mythical stories about three wise men visiting a newly born baby Jesus, and distorted stories about Peter being restored three times by Jesus, and misquoted and incomplete scriptures that typically leave out the inconvenient parts?

This really bothers me.

So now that I have vented somewhat, is it not really a big deal?

Is it okay to be sloppy with scripture and is it just my problem that it bothers me ... ?

Are there similar examples that bother you ... ?

~clay

Erroneous interpretations of the Bible are a VERY big deal, Clay. God's word is spiritual in origin and have within them deep spiritual meanings not known to the average Christian. When we make "men's traditions" out of the Word of God we replace the spiritual significance, which is meant for our soul growth and enlightenment, with ideas that are related to this world, which is going to pass away. Remember the errors of the Jewish teachers of Jesus' time? Their great mistake was that they took the Holy Laws which were representative of spiritual realities and wittled them down to useless traditions which were displeasing to God. These traditions did nothing for the enlightenment of the people, and worse yet, because of them the teachers themselves were unable to recognize the Messiah who was foretold by the scriptures they taught every day. It is so important to approach the Lord with a sincere heart, unselfish motives when we seek to truly understand His Word. Here's some food for thought. The book of Revelation deals not with the destruction and judgement of this world as so many Christian teachers today preach. This Revelation of Jesus Christ was to the CHURCHES. That means to the Body of Christ. It is a revelation of what is going to happen to those who were prophesied to bring the CHURCH to the same kind of ruin that the Hebrew religious system came to. John was not instructed to write to the world, which would not value the Word of the Lord. But to those who, confessing Him, could, because of much falsity and inseminated tradition over time, sow the seeds of corruption in the Church itself. Jesus said, "He that endures to the end will receive...." Only those who know the truth can "endure". Thus you may know that the revelation was given to the Christians not to take to the world but rather to other Christians. Many Christian denominations have come into the world. They can't all be right if they differ so much. Do not think that Christ over looks this. Judgement is in His hands and He is not blind to the differences in the spirit of the confessions of all of these faith. From our faith we confess. And from our confession proceeds our life's ethic. Our deeds. Our minds and lives are shaped via our actions by means of the things we believe. These things, down to the minute details will surely be examined by God and angels. Believe the Word of TRUTH. Not the traditions. The Word is truth. Doctrines are not truth. They are for the most part, at least these days, derived from TRUTH . Learn and determine the difference for yourself. Present your thoughts to God and He WILL lead you to His TRUTH.

[James M]

A recent post from someone looking for the scriptures that foretell the coming one-world government got me thinking about how much we abuse scripture. Why is that?

First there's the clear mythology - These are stories that we tell that we know aren't supported by scripture, like the three wise men coming to visit the baby Jesus at His birth. Nowhere does scripture state the number of maji (plural, so we only know that there was more than one) and they didn't visit the baby Jesus in the manger, they visited the child in the house! (Matt 2:9-11)

And I am so tired of hearing how Peter was "restored" three times for his denials of Christ in John Chapter 21 when it was clearly another failure on Peter's part (not to beat up on him, he just had not yet received the full measure of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost).

But my biggest is probably the quote that never appears in the Bible -

What the enemy intended for evil, God intended for good.

This is a misquote of Gen 50:20 where Joseph said to his brothers

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

But this is even further clarified five chapters earlier in Gen 45 where Joseph says to his brothers about their treatment of him -

vs 5 - God sent me before you to preserve life

vs 7 - God sent me before you to preserve a posterity for you

vs 8 - So it was not you who sent me here, but God

Then there are the "partial quotes" - usually of convenience.

Some that really bother me are:

James 4:7 - Resist the devil and he will flee from you

Rev 12:11 - And they overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony

Phil 3:10 - That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection

1 Cor 2:9 - Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor has entered into the mind of man what God has prepared for those who love him

What is wrong with those quotes?

They are incomplete!

• Submit to God, Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
  
• And they overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony and they did not love their lives to the end [other translations say - and they did not love their life even when faced with death)
  
• That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings
  
• Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor has entered into the mind of man what God has prepared for those who love him (10) but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
  

So why do we do that? Why do we have mythical stories about three wise men visiting a newly born baby Jesus, and distorted stories about Peter being restored three times by Jesus, and misquoted and incomplete scriptures that typically leave out the inconvenient parts?

This really bothers me.

So now that I have vented somewhat, is it not really a big deal?

Is it okay to be sloppy with scripture and is it just my problem that it bothers me ... ?

Are there similar examples that bother you ... ?

~clay

Erroneous interpretations of the Bible are a VERY big deal, Clay. God's word is spiritual in origin and have within them deep spiritual meanings not known to the average Christian. When we make "men's traditions" out of the Word of God we replace the spiritual significance, which is meant for our soul growth and enlightenment, with ideas that are related to this world, which is going to pass away. Remember the errors of the Jewish teachers of Jesus' time? Their great mistake was that they took the Holy Laws which were representative of spiritual realities and wittled them down to useless traditions which were displeasing to God. These traditions did nothing for the enlightenment of the people, and worse yet, because of them the teachers themselves were unable to recognize the Messiah who was foretold by the scriptures they taught every day. It is so important to approach the Lord with a sincere heart, unselfish motives when we seek to truly understand His Word. Here's some food for thought. The book of Revelation deals not with the destruction and judgement of this world as so many Christian teachers today preach. This Revelation of Jesus Christ was to the CHURCHES. That means to the Body of Christ. It is a revelation of what is going to happen to those who were prophesied to bring the CHURCH to the same kind of ruin that the Hebrew religious system came to. John was not instructed to write to the world, which would not value the Word of the Lord. But to those who, confessing Him, could, because of much falsity and inseminated tradition over time, sow the seeds of corruption in the Church itself. Jesus said, "He that endures to the end will receive...." Only those who know the truth can "endure". Thus you may know that the revelation was given to the Christians not to take to the world but rather to other Christians. Many Christian denominations have come into the world. They can't all be right if they differ so much. Do not think that Christ over looks this. Judgement is in His hands and He is not blind to the differences in the spirit of the confessions of all of these faith. From our faith we confess. And from our confession proceeds our life's ethic. Our deeds. Our minds and lives are shaped via our actions by means of the things we believe. These things, down to the minute details will surely be examined by God and angels. Believe the Word of TRUTH. Not the traditions. The Word is truth. Doctrines are not truth. They are for the most part, at least these days, derived from TRUTH . Learn and determine the difference for yourself. Present your thoughts to God and He WILL lead you to His TRUTH.

OUTSTANDINGLY RIGHT!