Romans 9

[Guest shiloh357]

Not really. For GOD to decide whom HE knows as a personal relationship, followed by determining to predestine them to salvation, is not quite the same thing.

But that is not what the text says. It says nothing about predestinating anyone to salvation. It says they are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. That is not salvation. That occurs AFTER salvation.

It is, however the natural progression from establishing a knowledge of them, predestinating them to be transformed to the likeness of CHRIST, calling those who are so predestined and then, when they answer that call, establishing them by both justifying and glorifying then at that time.

AGain, that is not what the text says. The text says that God those whom God foreknew he predestined to be conformed into the image of his Son. Those predestined to that end are called, justified and glorified. Except that the gorification is still future and will not happen until our bodies are redeemed (adoption) according to Paul.

If you were going to lay it out, then you would establish that GOD knew them before HE predestined them. After all, how would HE predestine people HE did not even know?

Yes, but if God knows who will or will not receive the gospel, then there predestining them to be saved would not make sense. It would amount to predestinating them to be saved if God already knows they will accept the gospel. Again, with the redundancy. God foreordains those Predestines amounts to two ways of saying the same thing in a redundant fashion.

[kross]

Not really. For GOD to decide whom HE knows as a personal relationship, followed by determining to predestine them to salvation, is not quite the same thing.

But that is not what the text says. It says nothing about predestinating anyone to salvation. It says they are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. That is not salvation. That occurs AFTER salvation.

It is, however the natural progression from establishing a knowledge of them, predestinating them to be transformed to the likeness of CHRIST, calling those who are so predestined and then, when they answer that call, establishing them by both justifying and glorifying then at that time.

AGain, that is not what the text says. The text says that God those whom God foreknew he predestined to be conformed into the image of his Son. Those predestined to that end are called, justified and glorified. Except that the gorification is still future and will not happen until our bodies are redeemed (adoption) according to Paul.

If you were going to lay it out, then you would establish that GOD knew them before HE predestined them. After all, how would HE predestine people HE did not even know?

Yes, but if God knows who will or will not receive the gospel, then there predestining them to be saved would not make sense. It would amount to predestinating them to be saved if God already knows they will accept the gospel. Again, with the redundancy. God foreordains those Predestines amounts to two ways of saying the same thing in a redundant fashion.

GOD foreknew whom HE predestined to be conformed to the likeness of HIS SON. Those predestined to that end, HE then calls (indicating HE doesn't call those who are not predestined to thisend) The verse, original greek and all, states that HE glorified them, not that it is something that will happen in the future. After all, GOD sees it as finished.

JESUS makes a statement, "Depart from me.. for I never Kknew you" So, if there arfe those HE never knwe, than it is esential for Paul to explain that those GOD foreknew, HE predestinated. If HE didn't "know" them, HE couldn't predestine them.

You say this "foreknew" refers to GOD seeing in advance something that they would do, or foreknowing something particular about them. The scripture doesn't say that. It only states that HE foreknew them. There is no place that refers to this foreknowledge as being a foreknowedge of an event.

[Guest shiloh357]

GOD foreknew whom HE predestined to be conformed to the likeness of HIS SON. Those predestined to that end, HE then calls (indicating HE doesn't call those who are not predestined to thisend)

Agreed.

The verse, original greek and all, states that HE glorified them, not that it is something that will happen in the future. After all, GOD sees it as finished.

That makes my point. None of us have been "glorified." God is looking at everything past, present and future at once. The future for God is as real as the present, as God does live in linear time. God speaks of our glorifcation a finished product even though from our perspective it is still future. We have not yet realized the full manifestation of salvation, in that we have not received the redemption of our bodies (glorifcation).

JESUS makes a statement, "Depart from me.. for I never Kknew you" So, if there arfe those HE never knwe, than it is esential for Paul to explain that those GOD foreknew, HE predestinated. If HE didn't "know" them, HE couldn't predestine them.

Yes, from Matt. 7:23. The context tells us something different about that passage. Jesus is responding to false prophets who are claiming to belong to Him. They are claiming relationship with Him, else how could they have done so many mighty works in His Name? Jesus responds with "I never knew you." The word for know is the Greek is derived from "ginosko." It is the word egnon and refers to relational experience. Jesus is not saying he never knew who they were, but that He did not have a relationship with them. Their claim to intimacy with Christ was fraudulent.

You say this "foreknew" refers to GOD seeing in advance something that they would do, or foreknowing something particular about them. The scripture doesn't say that. It only states that HE foreknew them. There is no place that refers to this foreknowledge as being a foreknowedge of an event.

Yet, includes that God foreknows all who will and will not accept the gospel. That is part of the forekowledge. God know which people will accept the gospel and he predestinates those people to being conformed to the image of His Son.

[OneLight]

You say this "foreknew" refers to GOD seeing in advance something that they would do, or foreknowing something particular about them. The scripture doesn't say that. It only states that HE foreknew them. There is no place that refers to this foreknowledge as being a foreknowedge of an event.

By all examples, scripture points to the understanding that God does know who will accept Him, and through this knowledge, He writes their name in the Book of Life from the foundations of this world. Anything else takes away from us being able to choose anything. Your belief, to me, would tell me that I am nor more then a puppet on a string, a pre-programmed robot, living my life within a script, already written. I do not see anywhere in scripture where this is indicated.

If we focus only on the word predestined, one would come up with the understanding you hold. Yes, by claiming this to be true, you also have to claim that God also chose those whom He willed to be rapist, murders, homosexuals and any other sin you can think of. Do you believe God predestined them to be sinners? If your answer is no, then you have to agree that it is by mans free will that they chose to be so. If they have to ability to choose to sin and reject God, they also have the ability to choose not to sin and accept God.

Yet, I will agree that God does not come right out and state what I believe any more then He comes out ans states what you believe. It is all in how we read between the lines.

[kross]

Biblical Predestination always pertains to service, not salvation. In each case where Predestination is mentioned in the Bible, it pertains to what God has predestined for those who have accepted Christ. There is not ONE place in the Bible that says God has predestined anyone to hell.

I was looking at the verse in Romans 8:30 again and I am having a hard time understanding this statement while reading that verse (not that that is anything new)

Romans 8:30 "Who HE predestined, these HE also called; and whom HE called, these HE also justified; and whom HE justified, these HE also glorified."

Reading this verse, I see that those HE called HE also justified and glorified. This means "Saved" to me. So it seems to me that predestination is linked to salvation in this verse. IF that is not true, than Christians can not lean on the promise that "All things work together for those who love GOD, who are The Called according to HIS purpose". Since Paul is using verses 29-30 to explain how those who are The Called became The Called. Namely that HE predestined them, so HE called them.

Those He "called" are the Gentiles . . .

Paul begins speaking to Jews in Romans 7:1 because of the problem in betweeen Jewish and Gentile believers in Rome-

Ro 7:1 Know ye not,

brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,)

how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Paul continues his address to his Jewish brethren to the end of chapter 9 calling on Hosea as a witness to his words -

Ro 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Ro 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Paul is not dealing with individual salvation . . . but salvation available to all those of every kindred, nation and tongue.

OK, I have been reading and re-reading these scriptures, these chapters, and looking for what you are saying. Do not see it.

How can you state that "The Called" refers to the gentiles when you quote Ro 9:24 that clearly links JEwish believers and gentiles to those who are called and to the vessel of glory written about in the previous verse?

I understand that Paul is writing to Jewish believers. He is clearly teaching them that the gentiles have been added to the promises. , this is being done because many of the Jews wanted to reject JESUS because HE stood for a loss of the exclusivity that they had with GOD (In which he also points to the fact that the Jews need to be saved),. Also, the jewish believers were still trying to get the gentiles to keep the law and Paul is explaining that they are saved by grace. Paul even takes the time to explain that ISrael is not completely cast off and, as was written by the prophets of old, a remnant is being saved by GOD's election (choosing) of grace. (Ro 11:4-7) As these chapters progress, Paul then returns to explaining to the gentile believers that GOD has not cast of Israel completely. However;

Going back to Ro 8:28, we see that those referred to as "The Called" are those who love GOD. This can not be all gentiles. It can only be those who are saved. We also see that these that are called, were predestined to it. Paul carries this idea to the point that those whom GOD glorified, the elect, can not be separated from HIM and no one can bring a charge against them. He then moves to teaching GOD soveriegnly choosing to bless some and to harden others in order to fulfill HIS plan.

Either GOD is making everything work for the good of every gentile, or HE is making everything work for the good of those who love HIM, which are those who are "The Called according to HIS purpose" Those HE called, are those HE predestined. Those HE predestined are those HE new before hand. These are those HE justified and glorified (a finished work from the beginning)

[kross]

You say this "foreknew" refers to GOD seeing in advance something that they would do, or foreknowing something particular about them. The scripture doesn't say that. It only states that HE foreknew them. There is no place that refers to this foreknowledge as being a foreknowedge of an event.

By all examples, scripture points to the understanding that God does know who will accept Him, and through this knowledge, He writes their name in the Book of Life from the foundations of this world. Anything else takes away from us being able to choose anything. Your belief, to me, would tell me that I am nor more then a puppet on a string, a pre-programmed robot, living my life within a script, already written. I do not see anywhere in scripture where this is indicated.

If we focus only on the word predestined, one would come up with the understanding you hold. Yes, by claiming this to be true, you also have to claim that God also chose those whom He willed to be rapist, murders, homosexuals and any other sin you can think of. Do you believe God predestined them to be sinners? If your answer is no, then you have to agree that it is by mans free will that they chose to be so. If they have to ability to choose to sin and reject God, they also have the ability to choose not to sin and accept God.

Yet, I will agree that God does not come right out and state what I believe any more then He comes out ans states what you believe. It is all in how we read between the lines.

Since I believe that no one would be saved if GOD did not intervene with an irresistible touch of love that results in loving HIM in return, "We love HIM because HE first loved us" And "We are HIS workmanship created for good works that HE prepared before that we should walk in them" I would rather give HIM the glory for the good works HE does through me.

I do not think of it as being a puppet, but, if GOD were not to intervene, I would be Satan's puppet. Now I am one who has given my life to JESUS for HIM to do with as HE wishes. I did this because HE loves me.

I do not have a problem with the notion that GOD makes some vessels for the purpose of showing HIS wrath. These will be the most vial of people (those who Satan has full control over and uses for evil) and they will be very good people (those who are destroyed because they think they are righteous enough to demand they be allowed in heaven)

Since i believe GOD is in control and is exercising that control, I extrapolate that HE intends what is going on. HE doesnt have to cause anyone to rape and murder, HE just has to not intervene.

I know that we do not agree on these things and whoever reads this thread will leave it convinced of what they believed when they came. But it is a good conversation.

[OneLight]

You say this "foreknew" refers to GOD seeing in advance something that they would do, or foreknowing something particular about them. The scripture doesn't say that. It only states that HE foreknew them. There is no place that refers to this foreknowledge as being a foreknowedge of an event.

By all examples, scripture points to the understanding that God does know who will accept Him, and through this knowledge, He writes their name in the Book of Life from the foundations of this world. Anything else takes away from us being able to choose anything. Your belief, to me, would tell me that I am nor more then a puppet on a string, a pre-programmed robot, living my life within a script, already written. I do not see anywhere in scripture where this is indicated.

If we focus only on the word predestined, one would come up with the understanding you hold. Yes, by claiming this to be true, you also have to claim that God also chose those whom He willed to be rapist, murders, homosexuals and any other sin you can think of. Do you believe God predestined them to be sinners? If your answer is no, then you have to agree that it is by mans free will that they chose to be so. If they have to ability to choose to sin and reject God, they also have the ability to choose not to sin and accept God.

Yet, I will agree that God does not come right out and state what I believe any more then He comes out ans states what you believe. It is all in how we read between the lines.

Since I believe that no one would be saved if GOD did not intervene with an irresistible touch of love that results in loving HIM in return, "We love HIM because HE first loved us" And "We are HIS workmanship created for good works that HE prepared before that we should walk in them" I would rather give HIM the glory for the good works HE does through me.

I do not think of it as being a puppet, but, if GOD were not to intervene, I would be Satan's puppet. Now I am one who has given my life to JESUS for HIM to do with as HE wishes. I did this because HE loves me.

I do not have a problem with the notion that GOD makes some vessels for the purpose of showing HIS wrath. These will be the most vial of people (those who Satan has full control over and uses for evil) and they will be very good people (those who are destroyed because they think they are righteous enough to demand they be allowed in heaven)

Since i believe GOD is in control and is exercising that control, I extrapolate that HE intends what is going on. HE doesnt have to cause anyone to rape and murder, HE just has to not intervene.

I know that we do not agree on these things and whoever reads this thread will leave it convinced of what they believed when they came. But it is a good conversation.

Yes, it is a good conversation, and I enjoy them.

[BlindSeeker]

OK, I have been reading and re-reading these scriptures, these chapters, and looking for what you are saying. Do not see it.

How can you state that "The Called" refers to the gentiles when you quote Ro 9:24 that clearly links Jewish believers and gentiles to those who are called and to the vessel of glory written about in the previous verse?

Ro 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for His name:

6

Among whom are ye

also

the called

of Jesus Christ.

Notice Paul envelopes all the believers of Rome, Jew and Gentile, as being

[Guest shiloh357]

Since I believe that no one would be saved if GOD did not intervene with an irresistible touch of love that results in loving HIM in return,

God's love is not irresistable.

We love HIM because HE first loved us" And "We are HIS workmanship created for good works that HE prepared before that we should walk in them" I would rather give HIM the glory for the good works HE does through me.

Precisely. That is what we are prepared beforehand for. We are foreordained to good works, to the process of sanctification that makes us more like Jesus.

I do not have a problem with the notion that GOD makes some vessels for the purpose of showing HIS wrath.

That is a problem because the Bible nowhere says that God makes some vessells for the purpose of showing His wrath. It says he makes some for more noble purposes and some for less noble purpose. No Scriptre says God makes anyone to be the object of His wrath.

These will be the most vial of people (those who Satan has full control over and uses for evil) and they will be very good people (those who are destroyed because they think they are righteous enough to demand they be allowed in heaven)

But it is not God who made them that way. They became vessels fitted for wrath due to their own rebellion not to any purpose attributable to God.

Since i believe GOD is in control and is exercising that control, I extrapolate that HE intends what is going on. HE doesnt have to cause anyone to rape and murder, HE just has to not intervene.

That is not interally consistent. If God intends what is going on, then he does bear some causal responsibility. He cannot be said to intend but not actually cause it to happen. Either God intends it, or simply permits it. It cannot be both.

[kross]

OK, I have been reading and re-reading these scriptures, these chapters, and looking for what you are saying. Do not see it.

How can you state that "The Called" refers to the gentiles when you quote Ro 9:24 that clearly links Jewish believers and gentiles to those who are called and to the vessel of glory written about in the previous verse?

Ro 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for His name:

6

Among whom are ye

also

the called

of Jesus Christ.

Notice Paul envelopes all the believers of Rome, Jew and Gentile, as being