can salvation be lost?

[JCISGD]

Heb 10:26 + 27 For if we sin willfully after having recieved the knowledge of truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgement and feiry indignation which will devour the adversaries.

I havnt read much of the other posts, but can someone explain or point to a post that explains how these verses do not unequivacally show that salvation can be lost ?

Lose/forfeit are semantics are they not? If we move from our line in the que we have both lost and forfeited it. But yes it is a conscious willful choice and not the same as being bumped or stumbling.

It is not talking about yeilding to strong temptation in a moment of weakness but of willful sin after becoming a Christian.

It cant be talking about rejecting the gospel as many do for a season but later repent and are saved. It states that the person has recieved the knowledge of truth, and that truth would be the gospel and Christ.

v 25 is warning not to forsake the assembling of believers so v 26 is addressing Christians,

v 29 speaks of trampling underfoot the Son of God, and treating His blood as a cheap thing. This again is something unbelievers are guilty of all the time even though they often have no knowledge of it, so it is a saved person who has turned back to the world and now denies Christ.

If Judas had not been saved he couldve repented and found forgiveness but his sin was wilful after having the knowledge of truth, unlike Peters sin of denial when he caved in due to human weakness.

Heb 6:4-6 also points to salvation being lost, they were enlighten and had tasted of the heavenly gift and had become partakers of the Holy Spirit, but they fell away. Our salvation is only secure if we continue untill the end, anyone who turns his hand from the plow is not worthy to be a disciple of Christ.

James 5:19+20 the person spoken of here has wandered from the truth and is then called a sinner. When this person comes back it states their soul has been saved, therefore they were saved then lost, then saved again.

Now obviously the key is that they wandered from the truth, and did not wilfully reject it as in Heb 10:26+27.

Be sure if we wander and do not come back or if we willfully reject truth to sin we will lose our salvation. Every appointment to position is subject to conditions and so also is salvation.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Its pretty clear from scripture that Christians can lose their salvation.

2Pe 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. (21) For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. (22) What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

Answer me this:

1) Why would it had been better for them to have never known the Lord then to know him and fall away?

2) How can their judgment be worse then those that have never known the Lord, if they are OSAS?

Last Question:

3) Based on the above scripture, what caused them to fall away? (Being entangled and overcome with sin)

Be not deceived!!!!

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9)

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not BLOT OUT his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." (Revelation 3:5)

OSAS is doctrine of deception that tells Christians that they can continue in sin and still go to heaven?

[JCISGD]

Its pretty clear from scripture that Christians can lose their salvation.

2Pe 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. (21) For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. (22) What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

Answer me this:

1) Why would it had been better for them to have never known the Lord then to know him and fall away?

2) How can their judgment be worse then those that have never known the Lord, if they are OSAS?

Last Question:

3) Based on the above scripture, what caused them to fall away? (Being entangled and overcome with sin)

Be not deceived!!!!

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9)

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not BLOT OUT his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." (Revelation 3:5)

OSAS is doctrine of deception that tells Christians that they can continue in sin and still go to heaven?

Hi Jedi, i think what some osas people are getting at is more like predestination, but if used to be complacent or neglectful i think they will not find themselves in the Lambs book after all. It is true that those who are truly saved will not fall away, but these will also not be in sin either.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Hi Jedi, i think what some osas people are getting at is more like predestination, but if used to be complacent or neglectful i think they will not find themselves in the Lambs book after all. It is true that those who are truly saved will not fall away, but these will also not be in sin either.

Its pretty clear from the 2Pet20-22 that they knew the Lord Jesus as Savior and had escaped the defilement's of the world yet at some point a long the way they became overcome with sin and fell away from the way of righteousness. In the OSAS book that person had truly experienced salvation.

So how can you tell a person they are eternally secure if you don't know for sure if they are truly saved or wont fall way, because 2Pet2:20 shows that you can know the Lord as Savior and escape the defilement's of the world and then again be overcome with sin and fall away, and have a worser fate and judgment then the unbeliever.

[leoxiii]

Its pretty clear from scripture that Christians can lose their salvation.

2Pe 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. (21) For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. (22) What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

Answer me this:

1) Why would it had been better for them to have never known the Lord then to know him and fall away?

2) How can their judgment be worse then those that have never known the Lord, if they are OSAS?

Last Question:

3) Based on the above scripture, what caused them to fall away? (Being entangled and overcome with sin)

Be not deceived!!!!

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9)

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not BLOT OUT his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." (Revelation 3:5)

OSAS is doctrine of deception that tells Christians that they can continue in sin and still go to heaven?

Hi Jedi, i think what some osas people are getting at is more like predestination, but if used to be complacent or neglectful i think they will not find themselves in the Lambs book after all. It is true that those who are truly saved will not fall away, but these will also not be in sin either.

I think you have hit the nail right on the head JC. The question now becomes: "By what means does a Christian know they are truly among the Elect (a.k.a. Predestined)?" We Catholics believe that this can only be known by a direct personal (private) revelation from heaven. Those who receive such revelation should always accept such in humility and be filled with self doubt as to why God would make private revelation to them, and if it really was God who made the revelation. Also, no one else is obliged to accept or believe such private revelation.

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works.

[OneLight]

The question now becomes: "By what means does a Christian know they are truly among the Elect (a.k.a. Predestined)?"

You seem to think that nobody this side of Heaven can know if they are saved or not, unless, as you stated above, you get a "direct personal (private) revelation from heaven". Here is scripture refuting your thoughts.

1 John 5:11-13

And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 3:36

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

1 John 2:25

This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

[Smalcald]

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Bingo, that is pretty clear.

[Guest shiloh357]

Salvation cannot be lost.

But, at what point is one irrevocably saved?

That is really the question that is being debated here.

I believe one is saved when one stands before the Judgment Throne of God and hears the words: "Well done, good and faithful servant."

Not before.

John 5:2 and 1 John 5:11-13 say that we can know (present tense) that we are saved today. Your "salvation" is based on what you do. REAL biblical salvation rests in the finished work of Christ on the cross. Salvation = Jesus + 0. If you add anything else to Jesus, you are outside the gospel and outside the true Christian, New Testament faith.

[Guest shiloh357]

The question now becomes: "By what means does a Christian know they are truly among the Elect (a.k.a. Predestined)?"

You seem to think that nobody this side of Heaven can know if they are saved or not, unless, as you stated above, you get a "direct personal (private) revelation from heaven". Here is scripture refuting your thoughts.

1 John 5:11-13

And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 3:36

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

1 John 2:25

This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

Amen!

RCCism teaches that salvation cannot be assured until after death. The Bible says we can know today, right now that we are saved. God has provided us with a know-so salvation.

[Guest shiloh357]

I think you have hit the nail right on the head JC. The question now becomes: "By what means does a Christian know they are truly among the Elect (a.k.a. Predestined)?" We Catholics believe that this can only be known by a direct personal (private) revelation from heaven. Those who receive such revelation should always accept such in humility and be filled with self doubt as to why God would make private revelation to them, and if it really was God who made the revelation. Also, no one else is obliged to accept or believe such private revelation.

That is pretty sad and unbiblical. The Bible says faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The Bible is a book of faith. It also book of unchanging truth. We don't need a personal revelation from heaven. The Bible tells us how to be saved AND it promises us that if we say "yes" to the gospel and believe the gospel of Christ from the heart, we will be saved immediately.

Our sins are washed away and we are new creations in Christ today. Eternal life begins NOW because Jesus is eternal life. He lives in us in the person of the Holy Spirit. I have a multitude of Scriptures that tell me that salvation is present tense, right now. So why would I want what you have? You have nothing to offer but doubt and unsurety masked in false humility. Doubting your salvation is not humility. It is nothing but a rejection of the truth.