can salvation be lost?

[HAZARD]

Salvation can be lost. Many examples are given in the Scriptures. Here are a few.

Saul was once in God's favour and grace and he had the Holy Spirit and he lost that favour and was destroyed because of sin (1 Chron. 10:3-14). Saul comitted suicide and thereby was lost, for no murderer has eternal life (1 Sam. 28:7-25; 31:1-6; 1 John 3:15; Gal. 5:19-21). It is recorded in Scripture how the spirit left him when he sinned (1 Sam. 16:12-23). Saul went into spiritualism and God said He would cut off the man who did this thing (Lev. 19:31; 20:6; Deut. 18:11). Saul was a humble and godly man when he was chosen to lead Israel, but he did not end this way (1 Sam. 10:21-24).

Ananias and Sapphira were both killed by the power of God because of covetousness and lying to the Holy Ghost (acts 5:1-14). That they were once saved is clear from Acts 4:32-5:1, for Ananias and his wife were classed with "the multitude of them that believed" and "were of one heart and one soul . . . as many as were posessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, and laid them down at the apostles feet . . . But a certain man [of those who believed and were of one heart andsoul] named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a posession." If these two were believers and had been saved and were in the church, then it cannot be disputed with any degree of honesty that they were once saved and then lost. To deny they were once saved is to deny thruth and it is not worth the price to pay.

Many galatians who were once saved and had "recieved the Spirit" who had "begun in the Spirit" who were "redeemed and justified by faith," and who were "sons" of God by being made free from sin (Gal. 3:2-4; 3:13; 24; 4:4-7; 5:1-26), FELL "from grace" and Christ became "OF NO EFFECT" unto them (Gal. 5:4, 5). They were "removed from Him" and "from grace," so once in grace always in grace is not biblical unless one stays in grace (Gal. 1:6; 3:1-5; 5:1-9). They were plainly told that to go back under the law and into sins of the flesh, meant to "frustrate [cause to fail, nullify, make void] the grace of God" and that in such case they were not in grace and would reap corruption (Gal. 2:21; 5:1-9; 6:7, 8). They were told that if they built again the things of sin that were "once destroyed" they were transgressors and sinners (Gal. 2:17-18). They were taught that true eternal security was by walking in the spirit and not fulfilling the works of the flesh (Gal. 5:16-26; 6:7, 8). Paul did not tell then that if they got in grace their responsibility as to sin was over. He accused them of falling from grace (Gal. 5:4), so such must be possible.

Many other men who were formerly saved have gone back into sin and have been lost. This fact is clear from such statements as these: "some having put away concerning the faith have MADE SHIPWRECK. . . . he hath DENIED THE FAITH. . . . when they begin to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; HAVING DAMNATION, BECAUSE they have CAST OFF THEIR FIRST FAITH . . . and TURNED ASIDE AFTER SATAN . . . But they that will FALL INTO TEMPTATION AND A SNARE, and INTO MANY FOOLISH AND HURTFUL LUSTS, WHICH DROWN MEN IN DESTRUCTION AND PERDITION. . . . they HAVE ERRED FROM THE FAITH. . . . and OVERTHRONE the FAITH OF SOME. . . . If God will preadventure give them REPENTANCE. . . . that they may RECOVER THEMSELVES OUT OF THE SNARE OF THE DEVIL" (1 Tim. 1"19, 20; 5:8; 5:11-15, 20; 6:1, 10, 21; 2 Tim. 2:18-16).

Each one of the statements above would disprove that doctrin of once in grace and faith always in grace and faith and once saved always saved, but here in 1 and 2 Timothy are many such statements in only two small books of the Bible. False security believers go to any lengthin trying to explain away these simple passages because they so clearly contradict their theory. Some of them go so far as to deliberately mistranslate the Greek and quote self made translations of men to prove that such simple statements do not mean what they say. For example, they mistranslate "they have cast off their first faith" to "they have broken their former promises" as if this proves a person cannot be lost. The Greek word "pistin" from "pistis" is never translated promises out of hundreds of times it is used in the New Testament. It is translated "faith" 222 times and is refered to as having faith in Christ in Rom. 1:5,16, 17; 3:25; 4:5-20; 5:1, 2; 10:17; Gal. 2:20; 3:24-29; Eph. 2:9; 4:5; etc. Thus the "faith" that they made shipwreck" of, "denied," "cast off," "erred from," and did "overthrow" is the true saving faith and has no reference to some promise that the people made themselves. They could not cast off, deny, and make shipwreck of, this saving faith if they had not once had it. They could not get into a snare of the devil AGAIN unless they had once been delivered from him. They could not have "turned aside" AGAIN after Satan, if they had not been following Christ. They could not have ERRED FROM the faith through hurtful lusts that "drowned in destruction and purdition" if they had not been once in the faith and free from such lusts. They could not have their faith OVERTHROWN if they had none to overthrow.

Even Lucifer was spoken of as being "perfect in they ways from the day that thou wast created, TILL iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:11-17).

He is now known as Satan and the devil, and over one third of God's angels sinned with him and are to be damned in a Hell especially prepared for them (Matt. 24:41). It would be folly for anyone to argue that they were not once holy and sinless and in God's favour and grace. Angels are definately called "sons of God" (Gen. 6:1-4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7). These sons of God in Job could not be men, for they were present when God laid the foundations of the Earth long before man was created (Job 38:4-7). If these "sons of God" fell and are to be damned, then the argument of some that if a man is once a son he cannot be lost or else salvation is not salvation and eternal life is not eternal life, is proved to be a false theory. If God will damn some of creation who were in grace and who are called "sons," then He will also damn others if they sin, else God is unjust and a respecter of persons.

Again, Lucifer, created by God is spoken of as being "perfect in they ways from the day that thou wast created, TILL iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:11-17).

[OneLight]

Yes, you have made this very clear that this is how you believe. I am not of the same belief. I do not see anywhere in scripture where free will is removed when one accepts Christ. Your admission that there could never see why anyone would ever think of changing their mind is the basics of your belief. Even though I have to agree that I, in my walk, could ever think of a reason why I would turn from Christ, I am not so arrogant to assume that I never will. I have to keep Him first and foremost in my life and not replace myself on the throne of my heart. That is something we all have to do in every decision we make, is it not?

Allow me to ask you this. If salvation was always ensured to a believer, why would Paul write to the Philippians telling them that they are to work out their salvation with fear and trembling? If what you say is true, there would be no cause to fear nor tremble, but to just realize that they are humans and will make mistakes. There has to be a reason why this phrase is spoken of more then once in scripture.

What you call to "arrogant to assume i never will" I call trusting JESUS enough to know HE will never allow it. I put my faith and trust in JEUS, not in myself. I do not feel you can trust JESUS too much. Some think you can.

The same reason he told the Corinthians to make their "Calling and election sure". Becasue the fear of GOD is the beginning, becasue not working out your salvation with fear and trembling might lead one to think they are saved when they are not.

Why does Paul state we are sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT until the day of redemption? Why does Paul state that the ones who are THe Called are the ones who were predestined to it? And then say they were also justified and glorified? And then state that nothing can separate them from the love of GOD that they have in CHRIST JESUS?

As you know, we can toss scriptures back and forth and neaither one of us will believe the other plus this thread was not established to be a WHO CHOSE WHO debate. (although that is fundamental as to whether the one doing the choosing can or will unchoose)

And, just for the record, I am more of the belief that the will is not free until GOD sets it free. "Those whom the SON sets free are free indeed" The very principle of which is that a person is a captive that needs to be set free in the first place. So, I do not believe one looses "Free Will" at salvation. I believe one gains it.

I have no disagreement with the belief that when one remains in Christ that they are sealed, protected, and secure. Where we differ is that I believe that we continue to have a free will and if we, through free will, decide not to continue in Him, and leave, that they will forfeit their salvation and you do not.

So, if a Christian were to ask GOD to keep him from falling and present him blameless, if he were to ask GOD not to let him stray from HIS path, you think GOD would say no? GOD would not honor this prayer with a yes?

"For we know that all things work together for the good of those who lov e GOD, who are The Called according to HIS purpose" doesn't mean that GOD is working all things for the eternal good of those who love HIM? This would include working all things so they continue to love HIM, since that is part of "ALL things"

Please read all that I have written to you about this subject. Nowhere have I ever disagreed with you about those who remain in His will. I don't know why you keep bring it up??

Our disagreement is about if a believer can/may turn from Christ if they decide to. I believe that someone, who hardens their heart against God after salvation, can turn from Him. I have also agreed with you questioning why someone would want to do this, but scripture never tells us that the moment we accept Christ, we loose our free will.

I will also say that you do not believe in free will, but predestination, which is the reason you do not think anyone could turn from Christ after receiving salvation. You do not believe that a person can choose or reject salvation. So, in turn, if you do not believe we choose to be saved, you will never believe that we can reject salvation, before or after being saved. Am I wrong in understanding your position?

[leoxiii]

The scriptures do not show us the operation of the early churches at all.

Then how do you know how they operated?

[Jedi4Yahweh]

So, if a Christian were to ask GOD to keep him from falling and present him blameless, if he were to ask GOD not to let him stray from HIS path, you think GOD would say no? GOD would not honor this prayer with a yes?

God is able to keep you from falling if you abide in him and keep your faith strong in him, but no where does it say that God will continue to protect those who choose to live in sin after the have come to faith. Jesus speaking to his disciples warned them to fear God who is also able to cast you into hell. God is able to protect and God is also able to destroy those who do not turn from sin.

There many warnings to Christians about falling away:

1Co 10:8-12 We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. (9) We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, (10) nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. (11) Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. (12) Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

1Ti 1:18-20 This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, (19) holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, (20) among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

2Pe 3:17-18 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. (18) But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Take care, brethren, lest there should be in any one of you an evil unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called 'Today,' lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end (Hebrews 3:12-14).

Notice our assurance is based on if we hold fast until the end. So our eternal security is conditional. These are the scriptures that OSAS followers like to leave out.

[kross]

Yes, you have made this very clear that this is how you believe. I am not of the same belief. I do not see anywhere in scripture where free will is removed when one accepts Christ. Your admission that there could never see why anyone would ever think of changing their mind is the basics of your belief. Even though I have to agree that I, in my walk, could ever think of a reason why I would turn from Christ, I am not so arrogant to assume that I never will. I have to keep Him first and foremost in my life and not replace myself on the throne of my heart. That is something we all have to do in every decision we make, is it not?

Allow me to ask you this. If salvation was always ensured to a believer, why would Paul write to the Philippians telling them that they are to work out their salvation with fear and trembling? If what you say is true, there would be no cause to fear nor tremble, but to just realize that they are humans and will make mistakes. There has to be a reason why this phrase is spoken of more then once in scripture.

What you call to "arrogant to assume i never will" I call trusting JESUS enough to know HE will never allow it. I put my faith and trust in JEUS, not in myself. I do not feel you can trust JESUS too much. Some think you can.

The same reason he told the Corinthians to make their "Calling and election sure". Becasue the fear of GOD is the beginning, becasue not working out your salvation with fear and trembling might lead one to think they are saved when they are not.

Why does Paul state we are sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT until the day of redemption? Why does Paul state that the ones who are THe Called are the ones who were predestined to it? And then say they were also justified and glorified? And then state that nothing can separate them from the love of GOD that they have in CHRIST JESUS?

As you know, we can toss scriptures back and forth and neaither one of us will believe the other plus this thread was not established to be a WHO CHOSE WHO debate. (although that is fundamental as to whether the one doing the choosing can or will unchoose)

And, just for the record, I am more of the belief that the will is not free until GOD sets it free. "Those whom the SON sets free are free indeed" The very principle of which is that a person is a captive that needs to be set free in the first place. So, I do not believe one looses "Free Will" at salvation. I believe one gains it.

I have no disagreement with the belief that when one remains in Christ that they are sealed, protected, and secure. Where we differ is that I believe that we continue to have a free will and if we, through free will, decide not to continue in Him, and leave, that they will forfeit their salvation and you do not.

So, if a Christian were to ask GOD to keep him from falling and present him blameless, if he were to ask GOD not to let him stray from HIS path, you think GOD would say no? GOD would not honor this prayer with a yes?

"For we know that all things work together for the good of those who lov e GOD, who are The Called according to HIS purpose" doesn't mean that GOD is working all things for the eternal good of those who love HIM? This would include working all things so they continue to love HIM, since that is part of "ALL things"

Please read all that I have written to you about this subject. Nowhere have I ever disagreed with you about those who remain in His will. I don't know why you keep bring it up??

Our disagreement is about if a believer can/may turn from Christ if they decide to. I believe that someone, who hardens their heart against God after salvation, can turn from Him. I have also agreed with you questioning why someone would want to do this, but scripture never tells us that the moment we accept Christ, we loose our free will.

I will also say that you do not believe in free will, but predestination, which is the reason you do not think anyone could turn from Christ after receiving salvation. You do not believe that a person can choose or reject salvation. So, in turn, if you do not believe we choose to be saved, you will never believe that we can reject salvation, before or after being saved. Am I wrong in understanding your position?

You keep saying that a Christian can turn. Even if he asks GOD not to let him turn, you say GOD would say not to that request. How can all things work for good if a man who loves GOD can wind up not loving GOD. This is not working for the good.

You are correct. I believe JESUS died for those GOD gave to HIM. All that the FATHER has given HIM will come to HIM and of them HE will loose none.

[Smalcald]

Well yeah Kross, if a person asks those things it means they have faith.

God would never deny a person who seeks Him and has faith in Him.

[kross]

Well yeah Kross, if a person asks those things it means they have faith.

God would never deny a person who seeks Him and has faith in Him.

But I keep having people say that GOD would let a person turn from HIM and be lost. That doesn't make sense if GOD answers prayer, and it really doesn't make sense if GOD makes all things work for good to those who love HIM. If a person loves GOD and then walks away, how is it that GOD made all things work for that persons good? That is not good.

[kross]

The scriptures do not show us the operation of the early churches at all.

Then how do you know how they operated?

We don't. And it is very unlikely that what the church is today is like the church in Paul's time. Most of those churches would have been meeting in secret in houses or caves. What we also do not know is exactly what they did as far as call to belief/ alter call.

[OneLight]

Yes, you have made this very clear that this is how you believe. I am not of the same belief. I do not see anywhere in scripture where free will is removed when one accepts Christ. Your admission that there could never see why anyone would ever think of changing their mind is the basics of your belief. Even though I have to agree that I, in my walk, could ever think of a reason why I would turn from Christ, I am not so arrogant to assume that I never will. I have to keep Him first and foremost in my life and not replace myself on the throne of my heart. That is something we all have to do in every decision we make, is it not?

Allow me to ask you this. If salvation was always ensured to a believer, why would Paul write to the Philippians telling them that they are to work out their salvation with fear and trembling? If what you say is true, there would be no cause to fear nor tremble, but to just realize that they are humans and will make mistakes. There has to be a reason why this phrase is spoken of more then once in scripture.

What you call to "arrogant to assume i never will" I call trusting JESUS enough to know HE will never allow it. I put my faith and trust in JEUS, not in myself. I do not feel you can trust JESUS too much. Some think you can.

The same reason he told the Corinthians to make their "Calling and election sure". Becasue the fear of GOD is the beginning, becasue not working out your salvation with fear and trembling might lead one to think they are saved when they are not.

Why does Paul state we are sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT until the day of redemption? Why does Paul state that the ones who are THe Called are the ones who were predestined to it? And then say they were also justified and glorified? And then state that nothing can separate them from the love of GOD that they have in CHRIST JESUS?

As you know, we can toss scriptures back and forth and neaither one of us will believe the other plus this thread was not established to be a WHO CHOSE WHO debate. (although that is fundamental as to whether the one doing the choosing can or will unchoose)

And, just for the record, I am more of the belief that the will is not free until GOD sets it free. "Those whom the SON sets free are free indeed" The very principle of which is that a person is a captive that needs to be set free in the first place. So, I do not believe one looses "Free Will" at salvation. I believe one gains it.

I have no disagreement with the belief that when one remains in Christ that they are sealed, protected, and secure. Where we differ is that I believe that we continue to have a free will and if we, through free will, decide not to continue in Him, and leave, that they will forfeit their salvation and you do not.

So, if a Christian were to ask GOD to keep him from falling and present him blameless, if he were to ask GOD not to let him stray from HIS path, you think GOD would say no? GOD would not honor this prayer with a yes?

"For we know that all things work together for the good of those who lov e GOD, who are The Called according to HIS purpose" doesn't mean that GOD is working all things for the eternal good of those who love HIM? This would include working all things so they continue to love HIM, since that is part of "ALL things"

Please read all that I have written to you about this subject. Nowhere have I ever disagreed with you about those who remain in His will. I don't know why you keep bring it up??

Our disagreement is about if a believer can/may turn from Christ if they decide to. I believe that someone, who hardens their heart against God after salvation, can turn from Him. I have also agreed with you questioning why someone would want to do this, but scripture never tells us that the moment we accept Christ, we loose our free will.

I will also say that you do not believe in free will, but predestination, which is the reason you do not think anyone could turn from Christ after receiving salvation. You do not believe that a person can choose or reject salvation. So, in turn, if you do not believe we choose to be saved, you will never believe that we can reject salvation, before or after being saved. Am I wrong in understanding your position?

You keep saying that a Christian can turn. Even if he asks GOD not to let him turn, you say GOD would say not to that request. How can all things work for good if a man who loves GOD can wind up not loving GOD. This is not working for the good.

You are correct. I believe JESUS died for those GOD gave to HIM. All that the FATHER has given HIM will come to HIM and of them HE will loose none.

Show me anywhere that I said those words. You are reading into what I have said. I said that a person can ask for forgiveness and at some point later in their life, decide that they really don't believe anymore. I never once said that God would refuse anyone that was asking Him for strength.

[kross]

Yes, you have made this very clear that this is how you believe. I am not of the same belief. I do not see anywhere in scripture where free will is removed when one accepts Christ. Your admission that there could never see why anyone would ever think of changing their mind is the basics of your belief. Even though I have to agree that I, in my walk, could ever think of a reason why I would turn from Christ, I am not so arrogant to assume that I never will. I have to keep Him first and foremost in my life and not replace myself on the throne of my heart. That is something we all have to do in every decision we make, is it not?

Allow me to ask you this. If salvation was always ensured to a believer, why would Paul write to the Philippians telling them that they are to work out their salvation with fear and trembling? If what you say is true, there would be no cause to fear nor tremble, but to just realize that they are humans and will make mistakes. There has to be a reason why this phrase is spoken of more then once in scripture.

What you call to "arrogant to assume i never will" I call trusting JESUS enough to know HE will never allow it. I put my faith and trust in JEUS, not in myself. I do not feel you can trust JESUS too much. Some think you can.

The same reason he told the Corinthians to make their "Calling and election sure". Becasue the fear of GOD is the beginning, becasue not working out your salvation with fear and trembling might lead one to think they are saved when they are not.

Why does Paul state we are sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT until the day of redemption? Why does Paul state that the ones who are THe Called are the ones who were predestined to it? And then say they were also justified and glorified? And then state that nothing can separate them from the love of GOD that they have in CHRIST JESUS?

As you know, we can toss scriptures back and forth and neaither one of us will believe the other plus this thread was not established to be a WHO CHOSE WHO debate. (although that is fundamental as to whether the one doing the choosing can or will unchoose)

And, just for the record, I am more of the belief that the will is not free until GOD sets it free. "Those whom the SON sets free are free indeed" The very principle of which is that a person is a captive that needs to be set free in the first place. So, I do not believe one looses "Free Will" at salvation. I believe one gains it.

I have no disagreement with the belief that when one remains in Christ that they are sealed, protected, and secure. Where we differ is that I believe that we continue to have a free will and if we, through free will, decide not to continue in Him, and leave, that they will forfeit their salvation and you do not.

So, if a Christian were to ask GOD to keep him from falling and present him blameless, if he were to ask GOD not to let him stray from HIS path, you think GOD would say no? GOD would not honor this prayer with a yes?

"For we know that all things work together for the good of those who lov e GOD, who are The Called according to HIS purpose" doesn't mean that GOD is working all things for the eternal good of those who love HIM? This would include working all things so they continue to love HIM, since that is part of "ALL things"

Please read all that I have written to you about this subject. Nowhere have I ever disagreed with you about those who remain in His will. I don't know why you keep bring it up??

Our disagreement is about if a believer can/may turn from Christ if they decide to. I believe that someone, who hardens their heart against God after salvation, can turn from Him. I have also agreed with you questioning why someone would want to do this, but scripture never tells us that the moment we accept Christ, we loose our free will.

I will also say that you do not believe in free will, but predestination, which is the reason you do not think anyone could turn from Christ after receiving salvation. You do not believe that a person can choose or reject salvation. So, in turn, if you do not believe we choose to be saved, you will never believe that we can reject salvation, before or after being saved. Am I wrong in understanding your position?

You keep saying that a Christian can turn. Even if he asks GOD not to let him turn, you say GOD would say not to that request. How can all things work for good if a man who loves GOD can wind up not loving GOD. This is not working for the good.

You are correct. I believe JESUS died for those GOD gave to HIM. All that the FATHER has given HIM will come to HIM and of them HE will loose none.

Show me anywhere that I said those words. You are reading into what I have said. I said that a person can ask for forgiveness and at some point later in their life, decide that they really don't believe anymore. I never once said that God would refuse anyone that was asking Him for strength.

I asked this question;

So, if a Christian were to ask GOD to keep him from falling and present him blameless, if he were to ask GOD not to let him stray from HIS path, you think GOD would say no? GOD would not honor this prayer with a yes?

Your response;

Our disagreement is about if a believer can/may turn from Christ if they decide to. I believe that someone, who hardens their heart against God after salvation, can turn from Him. I have also agreed with you questioning why someone would want to do this, but scripture never tells us that the moment we accept Christ, we loose our free will.

How am I to take this answer other than GOD would not honor this prayer? So, give me a yes or no answer to this question and I will be certain of what you are saying.