Vain activities

[2Joyful]

WOW Botz and . I know it was meant to help answer JCISGD, but I have to tell you, it fed my spirit...........jot

[CAP73]

Remove the plank from thine own eye.

[humbleseeker]

You could also look at speaking to be a vainfull activity if it dose not serve a purpose. Like the benidictine monks.

[Fez]

JCISCG, Can you give us some examples of what you might consider to be your opinion of vain activities? e.g. I stripped the carburettor of my bike today, the float was sticking, so that tomorrow I can take it out a get all muddy. Afterwards I will clean it, myself, and go to church.

Vain activity or just plain fun?

Give us some examples, maybe it will help to clear up what has become a bit confusing?

Blessings

[Matthitjah]

Bump!

Arthur,

I was hoping that you would answer this well though out and Loving admonishment from your brother.

Peace,

Dave

Sorry JCISGD my computer was down yesterday, but I gleaned these from your posts, and tried not to rip any of them out of context...Personally I think they go beyond Scripture and impose your view on others. Part of the direction of the Holy Spirit comes from our brothers and sisters in the L-rd, and therefore there is a strong case to weigh up if our own perception, and even what we have sought from G-d is truly on course if we a swimming in a different direction. (I am aware that from time to time there are those who are a voice to the Church and have a true burden from the L-rd.)

IMO music for entertainment is selfish and a misuse of the time allocated to us.

Did Jesus or Paul entertain themselves while on this earth? Im not saying we are not to have recreation and rest but entertainment is soulish and a appetite of the flesh.

Please tell me how it can be morally ok to watch sinners perishing while we spend time and money listening to a fleeting pleasure. Remember those that are first will be last.

I am a hypocrite in saying these things as I too waste much of my time and talents, but I am a watchman called to cry out "awake Church" multitudes are perishing while Christians are slumbering. More than this we are missing out on Soooo much the LORD has for us, "greater things will you do in my name" says the LORD.

I need to caution anyone of mocking others or their veiws, the LORD is jealous of His and I have known Him to punish those who do. This is not a threat, I have learnt the hard way about refusing to give the Lords warnings.

Elisha was mocked and a she bear mauled 40 children. God did this.

If anyone thinks it is ok to live for self while souls are being lost every second, then can they be following the Son of God whos single mission was to seek and save the lost?

Botz on the contrarydoes not God hate law breakers and punish them with hell? And isnt every example held up as pleasing to God in the bible, considered a morally upright person, and every example of one punished for disobedience?

What did Jesus do ? There has always been entertainments in the world but we do not see a hint of Jesus enjoying these even in His youth.

I have not assumed anything as the bible is for our instruction, the whole tenor of the bible shows that frivolous activities were unknown by our LORD, who set His face like flint towards Jerusalem. The bible does however speak against foolish things of this world and foolish or lazy people in times of need.

What I am saying is that selfish indulgence while souls are perishing is sin and that secular music not used for worship is selfish indulgence and a work of the flesh.

Just because a person says they do not feel conviction from the Holy Spirit does not mean something is right, have we not all had to adjust our veiws and behaviour as more light has been shed on us?

I am not saying that anything other than soul winning is sin, I am saying that everything we do must have this as our end goal.

The OP asked if secular music was a sin, and I replied that it is IF for mindless entertainment and not to glorify God.

Secular music is a sin if listened to with no goal of glorifying God in doing so, and the only way it could glorify God would be if it helps in saving souls.

Nobody here has answered my question, how can it be morally right to indulge in vain activities while a single soul is about to spend eternity in torment and seperartion from God.

Im not saying there are no legimitate activities that do not directly save souls, but that whatever we do it is to be for the glory of God and how does it glorify God if it does not have His goal that "none should perish"?

Ill try again. Although Jesus always loved the Father and brought glory to Him in all He did and said, His sole reason was to seek and save the lost and as His disciples this then becomes our sole purpose (not our sole activity). Sometimes this means we have fun with our families at other times it means going to a wedding or funeral etc, but it does not mean we waste anytime in vain activities that have no good purpose and would hinder or lose any opportunity to save souls.

So athough we do everything to the glory of God just like Jesus, we also have a ultimate goal of winning souls by everything we do, be it directly or indirectly.

Dont confuse enjoyments with entertainments, enjoyments can be edifying and needful, but being entertained is self serving and unless for a higher purpose selfish and unecessary or helpful to Christian maturity.

A vain activity is something that has no useful purpose. Are we agreed?

There are many vain activities that would not be sin if souls were not plunging into horrendous and eternal torment every second. Agreed?

Now please answer me how a Christian in can good conscience indulge in any vain activity while here on earth and not be guilty of the blood of those perishing.?

My other question then is, can it be morally ok to listen to secular or christian music to entertain ourselves.

My question was can a Christian have a clear conscience doing that which is not useful? Remember we will have to give account for every idle word spoken.

I did not ask if vain things were enjoyable, but if they were morally right. Please dont use a different definition of vain than intended or how can we get anywhere comparing apples to oranges?

If doing something vain with no purpose while souls are perishing does not incur guilt, then I guess we are free to anything we like and God just smiles?

I dont have a problem with listening to secular music, but usually only do so when it is unavoidable such as in the workplace. Its not what goes in that is unclean but what comes out. I personally think alot of "ok" songs are more deceptively harmful than outright blasphemous or immoral songs.

The problem in christianity today is that the blind are leading the blind and very few will be taught by proven men of God. By proven I dont mean they are a pastor of a flock, I mean they are seen to be faultless before God and man and are used migthily in power. By faultless I dont mean they never err, I mean their life and example is holy, and beyond reproach.

I dont know why God has chosen to give me this burden, but I do know its from God. I cant see how it appears to others but I dont live in condemnation nor do I seek to condemn others. His burden is light and His yoke is easy, in the past I was an untamed horse with no bridle, but I also was of very little use to my master.

[JCISGD]

Sorry JCISGD my computer was down yesterday, but I gleaned these from your posts, and tried not to rip any of them out of context...Personally I think they go beyond Scripture and impose your view on others. Part of the direction of the Holy Spirit comes from our brothers and sisters in the L-rd, and therefore there is a strong case to weigh up if our own perception, and even what we have sought from G-d is truly on course if we a swimming in a different direction. (I am aware that from time to time there are those who are a voice to the Church and have a true burden from the L-rd.)

IMO music for entertainment is selfish and a misuse of the time allocated to us.

Did Jesus or Paul entertain themselves while on this earth? Im not saying we are not to have recreation and rest but entertainment is soulish and a appetite of the flesh.

Please tell me how it can be morally ok to watch sinners perishing while we spend time and money listening to a fleeting pleasure. Remember those that are first will be last.

I am a hypocrite in saying these things as I too waste much of my time and talents, but I am a watchman called to cry out "awake Church" multitudes are perishing while Christians are slumbering. More than this we are missing out on Soooo much the LORD has for us, "greater things will you do in my name" says the LORD.

I need to caution anyone of mocking others or their veiws, the LORD is jealous of His and I have known Him to punish those who do. This is not a threat, I have learnt the hard way about refusing to give the Lords warnings.

Elisha was mocked and a she bear mauled 40 children. God did this.

If anyone thinks it is ok to live for self while souls are being lost every second, then can they be following the Son of God whos single mission was to seek and save the lost?

Botz on the contrarydoes not God hate law breakers and punish them with hell? And isnt every example held up as pleasing to God in the bible, considered a morally upright person, and every example of one punished for disobedience?

What did Jesus do ? There has always been entertainments in the world but we do not see a hint of Jesus enjoying these even in His youth.

I have not assumed anything as the bible is for our instruction, the whole tenor of the bible shows that frivolous activities were unknown by our LORD, who set His face like flint towards Jerusalem. The bible does however speak against foolish things of this world and foolish or lazy people in times of need.

What I am saying is that selfish indulgence while souls are perishing is sin and that secular music not used for worship is selfish indulgence and a work of the flesh.

Just because a person says they do not feel conviction from the Holy Spirit does not mean something is right, have we not all had to adjust our veiws and behaviour as more light has been shed on us?

I am not saying that anything other than soul winning is sin, I am saying that everything we do must have this as our end goal.

The OP asked if secular music was a sin, and I replied that it is IF for mindless entertainment and not to glorify God.

Secular music is a sin if listened to with no goal of glorifying God in doing so, and the only way it could glorify God would be if it helps in saving souls.

Nobody here has answered my question, how can it be morally right to indulge in vain activities while a single soul is about to spend eternity in torment and seperartion from God.

Im not saying there are no legimitate activities that do not directly save souls, but that whatever we do it is to be for the glory of God and how does it glorify God if it does not have His goal that "none should perish"?

Ill try again. Although Jesus always loved the Father and brought glory to Him in all He did and said, His sole reason was to seek and save the lost and as His disciples this then becomes our sole purpose (not our sole activity). Sometimes this means we have fun with our families at other times it means going to a wedding or funeral etc, but it does not mean we waste anytime in vain activities that have no good purpose and would hinder or lose any opportunity to save souls.

So athough we do everything to the glory of God just like Jesus, we also have a ultimate goal of winning souls by everything we do, be it directly or indirectly.

Dont confuse enjoyments with entertainments, enjoyments can be edifying and needful, but being entertained is self serving and unless for a higher purpose selfish and unecessary or helpful to Christian maturity.

A vain activity is something that has no useful purpose. Are we agreed?

There are many vain activities that would not be sin if souls were not plunging into horrendous and eternal torment every second. Agreed?

Now please answer me how a Christian in can good conscience indulge in any vain activity while here on earth and not be guilty of the blood of those perishing.?

My other question then is, can it be morally ok to listen to secular or christian music to entertain ourselves.

My question was can a Christian have a clear conscience doing that which is not useful? Remember we will have to give account for every idle word spoken.

I did not ask if vain things were enjoyable, but if they were morally right. Please dont use a different definition of vain than intended or how can we get anywhere comparing apples to oranges?

If doing something vain with no purpose while souls are perishing does not incur guilt, then I guess we are free to anything we like and God just smiles?

I dont have a problem with listening to secular music, but usually only do so when it is unavoidable such as in the workplace. Its not what goes in that is unclean but what comes out. I personally think alot of "ok" songs are more deceptively harmful than outright blasphemous or immoral songs.

The problem in christianity today is that the blind are leading the blind and very few will be taught by proven men of God. By proven I dont mean they are a pastor of a flock, I mean they are seen to be faultless before God and man and are used migthily in power. By faultless I dont mean they never err, I mean their life and example is holy, and beyond reproach.

I dont know why God has chosen to give me this burden, but I do know its from God. I cant see how it appears to others but I dont live in condemnation nor do I seek to condemn others. His burden is light and His yoke is easy, in the past I was an untamed horse with no bridle, but I also was of very little use to my master.

Hi Botz i think your heart is in the right place, but i think you are defending something i am not against or saying the bible is.

Im not sure what I am supposed to reply to here as you have not disproved anything but only quoted my statements which many are wrongly interpreting and misunderstanding. Can you pick one or two and elaborate where you think i err?

I admit in the begining I did not qualify my statements and should have said "entertainment" for entertainments sake. I was since more careful to make it clear that I only mean entertainment that has no useful purpose towards our health and the gospel is sin and who will deny this.

As Christians we should be supporting those who call for greater service and purpose in the gospel, rather than seeing where we can find a fault or loop hole.

Who in their right mind can say it is right to live selfishly? Im not talking about loving ourselves and looking after our needs, im talking about living in selfish disinterest towards towards the lost, and persuing vain activities.

Of course there is no direct command of this just as there isnt for many things, but it is so obvious that it does not need one?

"the Son of man came to seek and save the lost", Go ye into all the world and make disciples in my name", "whoever does not forsake all is not worthy to be my disciple".

[JCISGD]

JCISCG, Can you give us some examples of what you might consider to be your opinion of vain activities? e.g. I stripped the carburettor of my bike today, the float was sticking, so that tomorrow I can take it out a get all muddy. Afterwards I will clean it, myself, and go to church.

Vain activity or just plain fun?

Give us some examples, maybe it will help to clear up what has become a bit confusing?

Blessings

Fez i cant do this as i am not speaking against specific activity and only the motive for the activity. People are not reading through all my posts and i am now repeating myself and defending many things i have not said.

I have defined what i mean by vain entertainment in my OP. Can anyone seriously defend doing anything in vain?

i.e I may go to church for benevolent purposes or for selfish purposes the latter is sin. You also may strip your caburettor for vain/selfish purposes or for benevolent purposes, only you know your reasons and its not my intention to judge your motives or activities.

I am only pointing out that there is a standard by which we can know if our activity is holy or sinful, as many seem confused as to what makes a thing sin or not.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Arthur,

I was since more careful to make it clear that I only mean entertainment that has no useful purpose towards our health and the gospel is sin and who will deny this.

How about you give us some examples.

I believe your brother Botz offered you correction in accords with Biblical mandate. What do you think?

Peace,

Dave

[Botz]

Sorry JCISGD my computer was down yesterday, but I gleaned these from your posts, and tried not to rip any of them out of context...Personally I think they go beyond Scripture and impose your view on others. Part of the direction of the Holy Spirit comes from our brothers and sisters in the L-rd, and therefore there is a strong case to weigh up if our own perception, and even what we have sought from G-d is truly on course if we a swimming in a different direction. (I am aware that from time to time there are those who are a voice to the Church and have a true burden from the L-rd.)

IMO music for entertainment is selfish and a misuse of the time allocated to us.

Did Jesus or Paul entertain themselves while on this earth? Im not saying we are not to have recreation and rest but entertainment is soulish and a appetite of the flesh.

Please tell me how it can be morally ok to watch sinners perishing while we spend time and money listening to a fleeting pleasure. Remember those that are first will be last.

I am a hypocrite in saying these things as I too waste much of my time and talents, but I am a watchman called to cry out "awake Church" multitudes are perishing while Christians are slumbering. More than this we are missing out on Soooo much the LORD has for us, "greater things will you do in my name" says the LORD.

I need to caution anyone of mocking others or their veiws, the LORD is jealous of His and I have known Him to punish those who do. This is not a threat, I have learnt the hard way about refusing to give the Lords warnings.

Elisha was mocked and a she bear mauled 40 children. God did this.

If anyone thinks it is ok to live for self while souls are being lost every second, then can they be following the Son of God whos single mission was to seek and save the lost?

Botz on the contrarydoes not God hate law breakers and punish them with hell? And isnt every example held up as pleasing to God in the bible, considered a morally upright person, and every example of one punished for disobedience?

What did Jesus do ? There has always been entertainments in the world but we do not see a hint of Jesus enjoying these even in His youth.

I have not assumed anything as the bible is for our instruction, the whole tenor of the bible shows that frivolous activities were unknown by our LORD, who set His face like flint towards Jerusalem. The bible does however speak against foolish things of this world and foolish or lazy people in times of need.

What I am saying is that selfish indulgence while souls are perishing is sin and that secular music not used for worship is selfish indulgence and a work of the flesh.

Just because a person says they do not feel conviction from the Holy Spirit does not mean something is right, have we not all had to adjust our veiws and behaviour as more light has been shed on us?

I am not saying that anything other than soul winning is sin, I am saying that everything we do must have this as our end goal.

The OP asked if secular music was a sin, and I replied that it is IF for mindless entertainment and not to glorify God.

Secular music is a sin if listened to with no goal of glorifying God in doing so, and the only way it could glorify God would be if it helps in saving souls.

Nobody here has answered my question, how can it be morally right to indulge in vain activities while a single soul is about to spend eternity in torment and seperartion from God.

Im not saying there are no legimitate activities that do not directly save souls, but that whatever we do it is to be for the glory of God and how does it glorify God if it does not have His goal that "none should perish"?

Ill try again. Although Jesus always loved the Father and brought glory to Him in all He did and said, His sole reason was to seek and save the lost and as His disciples this then becomes our sole purpose (not our sole activity). Sometimes this means we have fun with our families at other times it means going to a wedding or funeral etc, but it does not mean we waste anytime in vain activities that have no good purpose and would hinder or lose any opportunity to save souls.

So athough we do everything to the glory of God just like Jesus, we also have a ultimate goal of winning souls by everything we do, be it directly or indirectly.

Dont confuse enjoyments with entertainments, enjoyments can be edifying and needful, but being entertained is self serving and unless for a higher purpose selfish and unecessary or helpful to Christian maturity.

A vain activity is something that has no useful purpose. Are we agreed?

There are many vain activities that would not be sin if souls were not plunging into horrendous and eternal torment every second. Agreed?

Now please answer me how a Christian in can good conscience indulge in any vain activity while here on earth and not be guilty of the blood of those perishing.?

My other question then is, can it be morally ok to listen to secular or christian music to entertain ourselves.

My question was can a Christian have a clear conscience doing that which is not useful? Remember we will have to give account for every idle word spoken.

I did not ask if vain things were enjoyable, but if they were morally right. Please dont use a different definition of vain than intended or how can we get anywhere comparing apples to oranges?

If doing something vain with no purpose while souls are perishing does not incur guilt, then I guess we are free to anything we like and God just smiles?

I dont have a problem with listening to secular music, but usually only do so when it is unavoidable such as in the workplace. Its not what goes in that is unclean but what comes out. I personally think alot of "ok" songs are more deceptively harmful than outright blasphemous or immoral songs.

The problem in christianity today is that the blind are leading the blind and very few will be taught by proven men of God. By proven I dont mean they are a pastor of a flock, I mean they are seen to be faultless before God and man and are used migthily in power. By faultless I dont mean they never err, I mean their life and example is holy, and beyond reproach.

I dont know why God has chosen to give me this burden, but I do know its from God. I cant see how it appears to others but I dont live in condemnation nor do I seek to condemn others. His burden is light and His yoke is easy, in the past I was an untamed horse with no bridle, but I also was of very little use to my master.

Hi Botz i think your heart is in the right place, but i think you are defending something i am not against or saying the bible is.

Im not sure what I am supposed to reply to here as you have not disproved anything but only quoted my statements which many are wrongly interpreting and misunderstanding. Can you pick one or two and elaborate where you think i err?

I admit in the begining I did not qualify my statements and should have said "entertainment" for entertainments sake. I was since more careful to make it clear that I only mean entertainment that has no useful purpose towards our health and the gospel is sin and who will deny this.

As Christians we should be supporting those who call for greater service and purpose in the gospel, rather than seeing where we can find a fault or loop hole.

Who in their right mind can say it is right to live selfishly? Im not talking about loving ourselves and looking after our needs, im talking about living in selfish disinterest towards towards the lost, and persuing vain activities.

Of course there is no direct command of this just as there isnt for many things, but it is so obvious that it does not need one?

"the Son of man came to seek and save the lost", Go ye into all the world and make disciples in my name", "whoever does not forsake all is not worthy to be my disciple".

Mate if you can't see what you are doing from the list of things I have shown you that you have posted, it is hardly going to make any difference if I zero in on one specific detail...I included the list, (and it was only a partial list) so that you could read through what you have written and attempt for yourself to more clearly see and evaluate the overall theme that courses like blood through your thread and test it's pulse...even here in your reply you state:-

As Christians we should be supporting those who call for greater service and purpose in the gospel, rather than seeing where we can find a fault or loop hole.

Why for example did you find it necessary to say this?...and who for example is trying to find faults or loop-holes with these people...whomever they may be? (is that the rustle of straw I hear?)

I would think most Believers on this site have a continual burden for the lost (or will develop one), seek ways in which to reach them, pray for opportunities, pray for boldness, desire more of G-d to be evident in our lives, and long for Jesus to become real to all who seek him. Most of us are regular labourers in the field, there are not many Pauls or Silas' , Wesley's, Finney's or Sangster's among us, and to try and impose their life-style or calling on others is unwise. By all means lets imitate those that we see G-d mightily at work in, and learn from some of their experiences and teaching as we seek to build up our own faith...but this is not achieved through such things as trying to say that any music that doesn't glorify G-d directly is vain, everything vain is a sin and therefore anyone who does these things is a sinner...that is legalism at it's most persuasive!...and that goes way beyond implication, or misundertanding...and IT IS what you have been saying.

It is my hope that the penny will drop, and that in time you will understand what I am labouring to demonstrate to you...but it is not just me, it is virtually everyone here....we all love you, but just want you to better understand the subtlety of a legalistic mindset which the Scriptures do not impose on anyone, and which is foreign to the liberty we have in Messiah.

Hopefully and prayerfully, your bother and even brother in the L-rd. Botz

[nebula]

JCISGD -

May I try to explain this again?

I believe you have taken a good principle and then added your own twist to it, and it is that twist that everyone is tripping over.

2 Tim 3

1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power ; Avoid such men as these.

"Lovers of pleasure" could be considered our obsesseion with entertainment. And in principle I agree that we place way too high a value on entertainment.

If you had said we need to spend more time working for the Kingdom than reveling in entertainment, I would agree.

But to boil down "working for the Kingdom" down to one and only one mission, we have to disagree.

Jesus said to make disciples, not make converts. Discipleship involves mentoring, training, growing. And this is a part of what we do here on this Board, for example. I hear that Chat is more of a harvest field territory. But here it is a lot more Christians strengthening each other in our walks.