Communion - Bread and Wine

[Botz]

Very interesting articles Mizz, thanks for posting them...they do not answer everything but certainly help fill in a some of the many gaps I have in trying to better understand the timing of it all in relation to the various elements of this Passover being celebrated.

There is a very interesting passage in Numbers that takes into account ritual impurity and the possibility that people might be delayed getting to Passover because of the distance of any journey they are on....so it demonstrates it was not a hard and fast rule for everybody, and that to some extent it is the observance of the memorial even a month later that is commanded.

Numbers 9:1Thus the LORD spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the first month of the second year after they had come out of the land of Egypt, saying, 2Now, let the sons of Israel observe the Passover at its appointed time. 3On the fourteenth day of this month, at twilight, you shall observe it at its appointed time; you shall observe it according to all its statutes and according to all its ordinances. 4So Moses told the sons of Israel to observe the Passover. 5They observed the Passover in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight, in the wilderness of Sinai; according to all that the LORD had commanded Moses, so the sons of Israel did. 6But there were some men who were unclean because of the dead person, so that they could not observe Passover on that day; so they came before Moses and Aaron on that day. 7Those men said to him, Though we are unclean because of the dead person, why are we restrained from presenting the offering of the LORD at its appointed time among the sons of Israel? 8Moses therefore said to them, Wait, and I will listen to what the LORD will command concerning you.

9Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 10Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, If any one of you or of your generations becomes unclean because of a dead person, or is on a distant journey, he may, however, observe the Passover to the LORD. 11In the second month on the fourteenth day at twilight, they shall observe it; they shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. 12They shall leave none of it until morning, nor break a bone of it; according to all the statute of the Passover they shall observe it. 13But the man who is clean and is not on a journey, and yet neglects to observe the Passover, that person shall then be cut off from his people, for he did not present the offering of the LORD at its appointed time. That man will bear his sin. 14If an alien sojourns among you and observes the Passover to the LORD, according to the statute of the Passover and according to its ordinance, so he shall do; you shall have one statute, both for the alien and for the native of the land.

Also in case people don't understand that there is a degree of lee-way with G-d when He looks at the intent of peoples hearts, we see in Hezekiahs day that many, including priests, were ritually impure, but G-d heard Hezekiah's plea and accepted them as they were....in fact the Passover was such a success and meant such a lot to the people, that they went and extended it for another seven days.

2Chron 30: 13 Now many people were gathered at Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread in the second month, a very large assembly. 14They arose and removed the altars which were in Jerusalem; they also removed all the incense altars and cast them into the brook Kidron. 15Then they slaughtered the Passover lambs on the fourteenth of the second month. And the priests and Levites were ashamed of themselves, and consecrated themselves and brought burnt offerings to the house of the LORD. 16They stood at their stations after their custom, according to the law of Moses the man of God; the priests sprinkled the blood which they received from the hand of the Levites. 17For there were many in the assembly who had not consecrated themselves; therefore, the Levites were over the slaughter of the Passover lambs for everyone who was unclean, in order to consecrate them to the LORD. 18For a multitude of the people, even many from Ephraim and Manasseh, Issachar and Zebulun, had not purified themselves, yet they ate the Passover otherwise than prescribed. For Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, “May the good LORD pardon 19everyone who prepares his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though not according to the purification rules of the sanctuary.” 20So the LORD heard Hezekiah and healed the people. 21The sons of Israel present in Jerusalem celebrated the Feast of Unleavened Bread for seven days with great joy, and the Levites and the priests praised the LORD day after day with loud instruments to the LORD. 22Then Hezekiah spoke encouragingly to all the Levites who showed good insight in the things of the LORD. So they ate for the appointed seven days, sacrificing peace offerings and giving thanks to the LORD God of their fathers.

23Then the whole assembly decided to celebrate the feast another seven days, so they celebrated the seven days with joy. 24For Hezekiah king of Judah had contributed to the assembly 1,000 bulls and 7,000 sheep, and the princes had contributed to the assembly 1,000 bulls and 10,000 sheep; and a large number of priests consecrated themselves. 25All the assembly of Judah rejoiced, with the priests and the Levites and all the assembly that came from Israel, both the sojourners who came from the land of Israel and those living in Judah. 26So there was great joy in Jerusalem, because there was nothing like this in Jerusalem since the days of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel. 27Then the Levitical priests arose and blessed the people; and their voice was heard and their prayer came to His holy dwelling place, to heaven.

[JCISGD]

God bless Botz, I too shall put my horse out to pasture. I guess my main objection was the treatment of Uncle Albe and the insinuation of replacement theology by some here if anyone disagrees.

Nebula I do get your point about reclaiming things lost, but imo its not yet proven in this case that communion as we know it has been added or was not a Spirit led observance along with others to distinguish Christianity from Judaism.

Its not fair to smear me as rejecting OT or make leaps on my behalf because i disagree with you.

I havnt said anyone here specifically was Judaisng and i used the word "IF anyone..."

I dont have a problem with anyone celebrating passover, i have a problem with being labeled as rejecting the Jews if i choose not to accept the changes i see creeping in.

Jews do not have to become as Gentiles but neither do Gentiles need to become as Jews. However Jews must give up trying to be saved by the Law and humble themselves and come to Christ just as we Gentiles must.

I dont know about you, but when i take communion i do not remember Christ as dead, but risen. To me communiion is a celebration and not a dirge.

Here is where i might need to eat humble pie. I always thought the passover meal was on a specific day? and Mizzdy seems to say such, but if it is eaten for a week i will have to rethink my position.

God bless.

[mizzdy]

God bless Botz, I too shall put my horse out to pasture. I guess my main objection was the treatment of Uncle Albe and the insinuation of replacement theology by some here if anyone disagrees.

Nebula I do get your point about reclaiming things lost, but imo its not yet proven in this case that communion as we know it has been added or was not a Spirit led observance along with others to distinguish Christianity from Judaism.

Its not fair to smear me as rejecting OT or make leaps on my behalf because i disagree with you.

I havnt said anyone here specifically was Judaisng and i used the word "IF anyone..."

I dont have a problem with anyone celebrating passover, i have a problem with being labeled as rejecting the Jews if i choose not to accept the changes i see creeping in.

Jews do not have to become as Gentiles but neither do Gentiles need to become as Jews. However Jews must give up trying to be saved by the Law and humble themselves and come to Christ just as we Gentiles must.

I dont know about you, but when i take communion i do not remember Christ as dead, but risen. To me communiion is a celebration and not a dirge.

Here is where i might need to eat humble pie. I always thought the passover meal was on a specific day? and Mizzdy seems to say such, but if it is eaten for a week i will have to rethink my position.

God bless.

P.s One thing i do know beyond a doubt is that the Lords Day is the first day of the week, and anyone insisting otherwise is being seduced by a decieving spirit. On thiis statement i would stake my life and could no more recant than deny Christ.

Thing is JC is that you don't know much about Judaism or the Jews if you think they are trying to 'save' themselves by following God's commandments. No one here will say Judaism is what we all should be doing, frankly I think they have done a tremendous job keeping Gods word, or it seems you are taking that position and light out to the world despite what they as a tribe or nation of people have been through. Do I think that rabbinical Judaism is what Yeshua taught and walked in, no I don't but frankly I see where all peoples have gone astray and have held mens words in higher esteem than God's. Theres not one person who does not see dimly in all areas of study, we can come to linguistic conclusions and try work out theology we just fail at taking Gods simple word and applying it to our lifes. Everything that God has written about, the parables of Yeshua are all based on a cycle, from the garden theme to the wheat and tares God based our world on cycles, Passover is part of that cycle also. So ya got to ask yourself why change from a yearly cycle as Passover is to a weekly one? why change the perfect one already in place?

Even before Yeshuas time on this earth days and weeks were not always kept correctly, have to remember the captivities and idolatries all of Israel went in and out of where they could not keep the Feast days according to God's ordinances. And while in captivity and away from the temple and its altar the people made do with what they could do. I have yet to work out the exact timings and such but I do know that the meal/seder that Yeshua had with His apostles must have been the Passover. We also cannot deny the written evidence of those men who knew and learned from the apostles who tell us that days and feasts have been moved to fit another type of worship and service that our very Messiah did not partake of nor promote.

Jews do not have to become as Gentiles but neither do Gentiles need to become as Jews. However Jews must give up trying to be saved by the Law and humble themselves and come to Christ just as we Gentiles must.

I hear this all the time and it always bugs me. Why do people have to become anything other than what God ordained His people to be, and that it to be set apart from the rest of the world and frankly that set apartness needs to be seen by the world? And as I think I have said many times before not one person who keeps the Sabbath or His Feasts feel as though they are getting saved for doing so nor do they feel any holier than those who don't. I know not one Jew who feels they are being saved by a law, any law. I do know some, sabbath keepers that is, who feel smug and superior for keeping the commandments but they are few and far between and if anyone tells you your salvation depends on obedience to Gods commandments is wrong also, they do not save Messiah's blood on 'our doorposts/hearts' does that. What I can't understand is why one wouldn't want to walk in His instructions? after all if ya took a list of all those 'laws' and checked off the ones you agree with, strive to do in your life I think you would be surprised at just how many we all keep. Sorry thats a bit off topic. You can stake your life on your belief that God changed His own set apart days thats fine with me I am not going to argue about it at all.

Something else its not about accepting or rejecting the Jews, its about accepting Gods ways and not mans when I say Passover I see it was given to all of His flock, His congregation or church not to just Jews or to Ephraimites or to Benjaminites but to all who believe and want to worship and follow Him. Yeshua says to 'do this in remembrance of Him' so every Passover we remember not only our ancient fathers but now we do so because of His laying down His life shedding His blood and what is more precious than that? The lambs blood covered those coming out of the land of Egypt, when the next generation crossed the Jordan they had to circumsize themselves renewing that covenant with Him. Now we are renewed within that covenant by His blood and the circumsizing of our hearts and we are to set aside that day each year. Its not a Jewish thing but a scriptural thing because whoever believes belongs to Him and we are to obey His written word are we not? Well thats how I see things anyhow and I'm never going to tell anyone to believe me about anything.

[mizzdy]

Very interesting articles Mizz, thanks for posting them...they do not answer everything but certainly help fill in a some of the many gaps I have in trying to better understand the timing of it all in relation to the various elements of this Passover being celebrated.

There is a very interesting passage in Numbers that takes into account ritual impurity and the possibility that people might be delayed getting to Passover because of the distance of any journey they are on....so it demonstrates it was not a hard and fast rule for everybody, and that to some extent it is the observance of the memorial even a month later that is commanded.

Numbers 9:1Thus the LORD spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the first month of the second year after they had come out of the land of Egypt, saying, 2

[JCISGD]

The thing is Mizzdy, by your own words you are saying that i am not walking in Christs instructions if i dont do as you do, you are wrong. You also have used logic about cycles to try to understand Christs commands, He is Lord of the sabbath and can change the day if mans needs change which they did after Christ came and sent the gospel out to the Gentiles as well.

I agree with you we dont have to become anything more than what God wants for us, for me as a Gentile that is different to those in Israel, unless maybe God wants me there as a missionary.

If a Jew who has not recieved Christ by faith, is not trying to be saved by keeping the law, then how do they think they are saved? Perhaps they think they dont need to do anything, but that would be because they think being a Jew saves them, which is one and the same in my book.

But your right i do know very little about Judaism, i only know when it is being foisted upon me.

[anitarose]

The thing is Mizzdy, by your own words you are saying that i am not walking in Christs instructions if i dont do as you do, you are wrong. You also have used logic about cycles to try to understand Christs commands, He is Lord of the sabbath and can change the day if mans needs change which they did after Christ came and sent the gospel out to the Gentiles as well.

I agree with you we dont have to become anything more than what God wants for us, for me as a Gentile that is different to those in Israel, unless maybe God wants me there as a missionary.

If a Jew who has not recieved Christ by faith, is not trying to be saved by keeping the law, then how do they think they are saved? Perhaps they think they dont need to do anything, but that would be because they think being a Jew saves them, which is one and the same in my book.

But your right i do know very little about Judaism, i only know when it is being foisted upon me.

Don't you think, though, that if you know very little about your own Hebrew roots (remember Jesus was a Hebrew), that before saying it's being "foisted" upon you, that you should at least investigate it. I do my very best not to force people to believe the way I do. How you believe is your own business is basically my philosophy. However....what IF, say, we're right and you're wrong? Personally, for me, I want to cover my bases.

Y'shua didn't change the day of worship. That was Constantine. So many people are ignorant of church history (please, I'm not saying you are, so don't take it that way) that they aren't aware that it was Constantine who changed both the calendars from Hebrew to Gregorian and from the "worship" day from Saturday to Sunday. The SEVENTH day has always been a Saturday, according to the Hebrew calendar. Sunday (a pagan name) has always been the FIRST day of the week.

Please believe me, I'm not saying that you are wrong and I'm right. God strike me if I am saying that. However, I would think that, if I disagreed with someone, I would want to be a Berean and investigate it before wildly accusing EVERYONE and saying that something is being "foisted" upon me when in fact it really isn't. Search the Scriptures. See if these things are true or not. Investigate church history from the Catholic standpoint and the Jewish standpoint. Do some research and THEN come back and tell us whether we are right or wrong.

With true love,

a.

[JCISGD]

hi Anita, this is not a new debate, and i have researched church history and know the arguements on both sides. What makes you think i have not searched the scriptures? I have on other occassions provided ample proofs and scripture.

Also let me say here as i have always said, i have not tried to force my opinions on others and dont object to the days others observe or not observe, i have only objected to those that have said the "real sabbath is the seventh day", and thereby insinuating my observance is inferior when infact the Lords Day superceeds the seventh day observance.

Constantine did not change or iinvent the Lords Day observance, and the writings of all the earliest church fathers shows that christians met on the first day of the week. Constantine merely made it a statury day of observance that all including slaves could choose to keep.

This topic began as a different question and has changed somewhat in the last few pages, I jumped in after seeing the appalling treatment of Uncle Albe who spoke his mind and was mocked for believing different to those now "investigating if we have been wrong for the past 2000 yrs.

Investigation is good, but just dont start treating it as truth without historical facts to back it up. It has been said that the early Gentile church distanced itself from Judaism from improper motives and false doctrine? I have not seen any facts to back this up to date, only hear say.

I have no animosity im just speaking my mind.

[nebula]

Nebula I do get your point about reclaiming things lost, but imo its not yet proven in this case that communion as we know it has been added or was not a Spirit led observance along with others to distinguish Christianity from Judaism.

Well, I hope you noticed that several of us are likewise in questioning mode.

I guess the difference is how open one is to accepting that it might be a possibility?

Its not fair to smear me as rejecting OT or make leaps on my behalf because i disagree with you.

I havnt said anyone here specifically was Judaisng and i used the word "IF anyone..."

I dont have a problem with anyone celebrating passover, i have a problem with being labeled as rejecting the Jews if i choose not to accept the changes i see creeping in.

I guess we are both guilty of talking past each other.

It puzzles me and some others why whenever we mention returning to the roots (i.e. celebrating Passover and the like) that we are accused of advocating salvation apart from Christ.

Or that we are trying to return to the Law.

Jews do not have to become as Gentiles but neither do Gentiles need to become as Jews.

But we are not advocating becoming Jews.

However Jews must give up trying to be saved by the Law and humble themselves and come to Christ just as we Gentiles must.

And where do you get the idea that anyone is saying otherwise?

I dont know about you, but when i take communion i do not remember Christ as dead, but risen. To me communiion is a celebration and not a dirge.

I don't remember Him as dead, either. But I do remember the sacrifice.

Just like we sing songs that commemorate His death, His sacrifice, without mentioning the resurrection (i.e. "Via Dolorosa," "Lamb of God" by Twila Paris).

There is a different living memorial for His resurrection.

[Guest]

..... Investigation is good, but just don't start treating it as truth without historical facts to back it up....

Historically

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Genesis 2:1-3

The LORD's Day

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20:10-11

Really Is The Lord's Day

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. Mark 2:27-28

But Carry On Dear Brother, Carry On

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. Romans 14:5

[Botz]

Theres a passage in John 18:28 that says the priest would not go to the Praetorium because they were ritually clean for Passover and going in there would make them unclean.Its very possible He was slain at 'twilight' which is not night but the time right after sunset and the time the stars came out and if I remember right it was the time the lambs were slain by the whole congregation. When the people were leaving Egypt it seems it was a matter to be dealt with at home and only after they are gathered as a congregation did they do so together. Each household was to bring the lamb in the house by the 10th of the month, so I have to wonder if it was not just a ritual done by the priests, gosh I can't remember when or where God ordained the priest to do all the lamb slaughterings for Passover, is it even there gonna have to go reread it now to make sure there even is a command. I think the priest need to examine the lamb but they would never get all that slaughtering in time even with all those priest do you think? Anyhoo...

It is quite tricky trying to pin down exactly what when on with all the ordinances involved in Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and when I have looked into scholarly dissertions they have differed considerably in their timing, and the extent of customs employed.

I just cannot work out yet what sacrifices were taking place, including the daily sacrifice, and how they were done....it would seem inconceivable that the Priests slaughtered lambs for upwards of 250,000 people, bearing in mind that each group had to consist of not less than ten and not more than twenty...and even though I have read Alfred Edersheim's account of Passover, I cannot understand the chronology or the over-lapping rituals, but I am trying....I also checked out Victor Buksbazen's booklet on the Feasts of Israel, but found it singularly unhelpful as he skimmed through with very little detail.

I understand Gods leeways and we need to do things in the Spirit they are intended and do what we can to make His days as close to what He says as possible all the while knowing we are gonna mess things up and still be loved and covered with His grace! Coming back to the temple after captivity would have been hard to keep the days as they did before but I think they did a remarkable job. My bottom line is that I don't wanna follow something that really isn't 'original' to what He did in His life, I want to find as best as possible the early practices and put those in my life. So I figue God said He declared all things, and I believe Him when He says that, are revealed in the beginnng so thats usually where I start and there must be corresponding witness from beginning to end and I cannot find communion in the beginning. But I find His overwhelming grace over those who sometimes didn't get it right either.

I agree...the conclusion I have come to is that if I just comply with something and go with the crowd, I am not operating out of faith, and I want everything to have significance and to be done in faith. On top of that, I am not content to allow the dictates and vestiges of Christian anti-Semitism to dominate what I do and why, and I have committed myself to fighting it every step of the way.