Communion - Bread and Wine

[Botz]

I don't think you were listening bro...I thought I explained clearly that I was not advocating Judaism.

Thoughtfully. Botz

One of the biggest issues some have it seeing the separation between Judaisn and the 'Jewishness' of the bible, too many see Judaism when they read Passover, etc.

Hi Mizzdy....I think this is one of the bigest hinderances at this present time to the Body of Gentile Believers re-connecting to their Jewish roots....there is an inbuilt resistance which is due to a number of things such as; PRIDE, PREVIOUS TEACHING, DISLIKE OF CHANGE, DISMISSING IT AS TRIVIAL, FOCUSING ON MORE IMPORTANT ISSUES, INHERENT BUT UNRECOGNIZED VESTIGES OF ANTI-SEMITISM, and probably plenty more.

IMO...It is not like in the days of the early Church, where the leaders could meet up in Jerusalem, hammer things out, seek to hear what the Spirit is saying, pass a ruling and get on with the job in hand....nowadays the body is truly fragmented with different governing bodies, Gentile traditions, and personal theologies which tend to obscure the clarity of the voice of the Spirit to the Body of Believers as a whole.

I happen to believe that part of what is necessary in these times is for a shaking to come to the Gentile Body of Believers, and even as they/we acknowledge the miraculous re-emergence of Israel as a nation, and the spreading of Messianic Congregations...so we also hear and are obedient to the call to repentance of the way we have treated Jewish people, and the way we have continued over the centuries in the great Schism that has separated us from the main natural branches...and it is poignant to realise that many Believers say they had nothing to do with what happened in the past...but at the same time are content to remain dis-connected because of what they had nothing to do with. (needs some thinking about)

It is my understanding that many Gentile congregations have gone part-ways in this, and repented for the past, and to some extent support Israel in a general way...but I believe a far deeper repentance is becoming apparent, where we actually demonstrate our obedience by actively turning away from centries long traditions and teachings that have continued to fuel this separation, and take active steps to re-adjust the balance....

Is it important?......I would say at this time in our history it is important if it is truly part of what the Spirit is saying to us, and though at first we might have a tendency either to resist or over-emphasize, it is perhaps best demonstrated with this Scripture:

John 13:3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God and was going back to God, 4 got up from supper, and laid aside His garments; and taking a towel, He girded Himself.

5 Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples

[nebula]

thanks for the words of correction Botz and Neb, i think ill bow out of this topic untill im better reseaerched.

I need to learn from your humility.

[Leonard]

Now if this wasn't what Jesus had meant, all He had to do was say, "Hey! Wait a minute guys! I was just speaking spiritually!!"

He did:

"It is the Spirit who gives life ; the flesh profits nothing ; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. (John 6:63)

That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

[nebula]

That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

No.

I think it is more of a stretch to say that Jesus commanded something that is forbidden in Torah - consuming blood.

[Fez]

That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

No.

I think it is more of a stretch to say that Jesus commanded something that is forbidden in Torah - consuming blood.

Amen Nebula!

[UncleAbee]

Wow. Where to start?

What is communion? - It is a ceremony that is intended to help us remember Christ's sacrifice on the cross. The bread represents his body. The juice represents his blood which He shed for us (Matthew 26:26-35).

Is it really His body and blood? - Jesus says in Matt 26:28 "this is my blood which is poured out for many..." My question is when did Jesus shed or pour out His blood? Was it at the communion table or was it on the cross? Jesus did not go to the cross until after the Lord's supper. He didn't shed Hids blood until He went to the cross. Therefore the juice they were drinking could not have been His actual blood nor the bread His actual body. If it was then sins were forgiven at the table and before Jesus went to the cross. Maybe we should be wearing tables around our necks instead of crosses. Also, when you drink the juice does it taste like blood? Has any one told you that the juice tasted like blood? What about the bread? Does it taste like or have the consistency of flesh? Has anyone told you " I ate that bread and it tasted like flesh."

Who can take communion? - It is intended for Christians but if a non christian takes it then what does it hurt? They are not leading worship in any manner. Will eating communion send you to heaven or damn you to hell? I say neither. I know that not eating communion for Christians will condemn you because you are disobeying Christ. But, it doesn't matter what a non Christian does they are doomed to hell until they become Christians. Maybe taking communion will help them to think about their condition and lead them to Christ.

When to take communion? - The "as often" in 1 Cor 11 is always debated. Some say it's whenever you want to. If you look in Acts 20:7 you see Christians gathering on the first day of the week to break bread or take communion. This is the reason they came together. In 1 Cor 11:33 Paul says "when you come together to eat...." This is the reason 1st century Christians gathered. They did not gather to hear preaching, sing songs, take an offering or say prayers. They gathered on the 1st day of the week to remember the Lord and take communion. They do all the other things (preach, pray, sing, offering) because it is expedient while everyone is gathered together and it edifies the body. You can do all the other items whenever you want to. Communion is tied to the 1st day of the week when Christians assemble. Acts 20:7 says "On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them,..." Why were they gatherd together? They were in order to break bread. Paul preached because they were already gathered and it was a good time for it. It is also funny to me how no one argues over passing the offering plate every week but they will over passing the communion cup every week and they are both acts of worship. Doesn't passing the offering plate get boring too? Do we ever change it up to make it more exciting? Why not pass the offering plate once a month like most do communion?

What does "examine yourself" mean in 1 Cor 11? - What the Corinthians were doing was treating their brethren badly and then trying to take communion. They were also getting drunk at the communion table. They would eat and get full. Then they would deny their brother who was hungry some food. Then they would go and try to take communion. Paul was saying how can you treat your brother so bad and then go and try to act like you are buddies with the Lord. You are condemning yourself. How can you get drunk at the Lord's table? The bible calls drunkenness a sin. People were sinning and then trying to commune with God. We must examine ourselves in the same manner. How can you live in sin, don't repent, and then go and try to be buddies with the Lord. You are purposefully living in sin and then trying to eat dinner with the Lord. You are eating condemnation to yourself.

Edited November 29, 2010 by UncleAbee

[Fez]

South sings in our church worship group.

During worship the group often plays worship music softly in the background while the church breaks bread.

I wait.

I take two glasses and bread and I wait until after worship.

Then we sit and break bread together. I look at her while drinking and eating His

[Botz]

I don't know if the above from Fez was a question to me or anyone else...I don't think there is anything wrong with communion as practiced in many Christian groups, I just don't believe it was done the way we do it, and I believe we have made a Gentilised ceremony divorced from its original context, probably due to the teaching and the leading of the Roman Catholic Church...the only difference being that the doctrine of transubstantiation has been ditched.

Would the L-rd be upset at what He sees? Well He looks at the heart, and many Believers when they take communion are re-inacting in good faith, what they believe is a spiritual principle and scriptural command...and of course, why change something when it is perfectly adequate, beneficial and actually means something to most who partake....I mean who is going to argue that it is wrong to remember on a regular basis what the L-rd accomplished for us, or to regularly examine our hearts and minds to see if there is any sin that needs cleansing or attitudes that need changing.

And yet.....

I cannot get away from the fact that good teaching often endeavours to disclose what is right and true...to encourage, exhort, edify, and this means in some cases to re-assess what we do, and why we are doing it, and the most disturbing thing to me about communion is that we have to some extent perpetuated a Christian myth, and by extracting the bread and the wine from their traditional context and Gentilising it, we inevitably distance ourselves from the Jewish people, and do not get to partake in the full aspects of this feast which also exults in the deliverance of the nation of Israel by the hand of G-d through Moses.....and as far as I can ascertain, this is precisely why the institutionalised ceremony of communion was ordained....not because it was biblical, but because it was now sanitised without an overt Jewish connection.

Now I realise that for many people this whole idea might resemble some internal conspiracy theory, but I would rather do things right if at all possible, because I believe that the original intent and purpose of G-ds heart is more adequately revealed and discovered, when we do things right, and not out of a tradition, (however precious) that continues to blind us to the full intent and probably the full blessing of this important feast to which we as Gentiles are now invited and included.

Is there possibly a 'middle-ground' whereby we are happy to retain what we have in communion, but to incorporate Passover?....don't know, and am trying to get some light on this....I understand something of what UncleAbee is saying, but I think it is a stretch equating 'breaking of bread' with what we call communion...they simply gathered together on the first day of the week, which the Acts 20 scenario demonstrates would have been a saturday night.

What I would find harder to argue against would be what constituted the L-rds Supper? and was Paul demonstrating by his exhortation and displeasure in 1Cor 11:17-34 that everytime they gathered (possibly once a week after Shabbat)together as a body they were specifically celebrating the rememberance of the L-rds sacrifice?....again I don't know, and am praying, thinking, seaching and reading.

[Fez]

Maybe it has been "simplified" by the church. Of that I am not certain.

But I really feel that anything we do in reverence and remembrance of the Lord's name, be it breaking bread, baptism (now there's a whole new kettle of fish to discuss - again ), is a good thing. Especially as the Lord knows our hearts, and knows why we are doing it.

It's kind of like the Lord's prayer. The disciples asked Jesus, "How should we pray?"

Jesus said, "Pray like this", and gave them the Lords prayer.

Now the Lord's prayer was a lesson on how to pray as well as a prayer in itself. Taken literally, it could be argued that Jesus was saying pray this way, and there is no need to pray any other way?

I know that is not backed by all the other scripture on prayer, but do you get my meaning?

[Botz]

Maybe it has been "simplified" by the church. Of that I am not certain.

Yes I have been considering that possibility....that they consolidated the essence of the feast, and took the symbols of bread and wine...but from what I read of Communion, people actually believe that this practice was initiated and endorsed to be a regular re-inactment, based on 1Cor 11...when in actual fact it appears to be a deliberate act specifically designed to distance the Gentiles from anything remotely looking Jewish, and it is from this point onwards that leaders and theologians seem to argue their point....in other words they try to use Scripture to prop up and justify a tradition that stemmed not from the Scriptures, but from the teachings of those called 'Church Fathers' and even inadvertently re-inforcing Roman Catholic doctrine.

Nowadays, for the most part, I don't think there is anything of malicious intent in carrying on this tradition, and for the 'Gentile Church' to have a paradigm shift on this matter would take a deep work of Grace...but I believe it is a distinct possibility, if not a pressing necessity.....but I exercise a level of caution until fully convinced myself, and continue to weigh possibilities and to think and pray about it. I had thought more people would get in on the discussion/argument, but perhaps the boards are a bit slow at the moment, or it does not really provoke.

But I really feel that anything we do in reverence and remembrance of the Lord's name, be it breaking bread, baptism (now there's a whole new kettle of fish to discuss - again ), is a good thing. Especially as the Lord knows our hearts, and knows why we are doing it.

Can't argue with that...we have great liberty in the L-rd, and are not to be bound by trivia or man-made rules that nullify the heart and intent of obeying G-d...However I believe it is possible that through by-passing Passover and understanding the significance and the blessing attached to this feast/celebration we cause an open wound to the Body of Messiah to remain unhealed, and I can't believe this should have to remain this way.

It's kind of like the Lord's prayer. The disciples asked Jesus, "How should we pray?"

Jesus said, "Pray like this", and gave them the Lords prayer.

Now the Lord's prayer was a lesson on how to pray as well as a prayer in itself. Taken literally, it could be argued that Jesus was saying pray this way, and there is no need to pray any other way?

I know that is not backed by all the other scripture on prayer, but do you get my meaning?

Yes Bro, of course I get your meaning...and even when the L-rds Prayer is said every week by some, parrot fashion in an unified monotonous tone, I can still get something from it because they are the words of Truth from Jesus...(but many understand it is a rabbinical teaching aid that gives the framework on how to learn to pray...fervently, passionately with a pure heart and in faith, believing and knowing that you are heard by G-d....(taught by the Son who intimately knows the Father and how to bend His ear)

Moving on....my thoughts are that this teaching in 1Cor 11 has much to reveal to us, but I will hold back for now as I don't want to flog a dead horse, or be seen to argue something that others are unwilling to engage in.

Still thinking, still praying in Messiah. Botz