Condemnation and Guilt

[Botz]

Botz you havnt answered my questions and then have gone on insisting i am bringing condemnation.

2.) How can i? i am no authority nor do i claim to be.

3.) Is this an open forum? or are we only allowed to say what others want to hear?

I'm sorry bro...I just focused on the thrust of what you were saying, I will answer everything precisely later tonight I promise (by the way you left loads of my questions unanswered on the other threads...but I know you were probably overloaded)

2.) You don't have to be some sort of authority to bring condemnation...there is power in your words, each of us effects other people by what we say and do, and I believed what you brought was wrong...so did 99% of the people here!

3.) Of course it is an open Forum, and there is plenty of controversy, arguments and discussion flying around...you haven't been targeted or sensored to my knowledge...but if you throw your hat into the ring, you make what you say fair game for discussion...and gentle admonition.

In Scripture we see Paul challenging Peter to his face, because he was trying to serve two masters as it were...He loved Peter, but believed he was wrong in the way he was going about things. If you or I say something that does not quite measure up to Scripture, because it is an open Forum, we have to expect it will not be well-received, and strongly challenged...unless nobody here cares about the truth, which is not the case at all.

I have said one or two things in the past, been challenged in no uncertain terms (sometimes a little cruelly) and been very glad that I have....also I have stuck to my guns on certain issues, because I believed it was biblical....but I did not have 99% of everyone against me...there was a fair division of views.

Even on sights like Worthy, we have to develop thick-skins, and learn not to take offence...I have seen many people here get disheartened quickly, because of some rather harsh replies...but we really need to be confident in the L-rd, and not allow ourselves to be troubled by such temporary things.

Anyway I am rambling on...get back to you tonight....

[Fez]

JCISGD, why don't you have a go at answering your own question for us, and then perhaps we will understand what you are getting at?

[JCISGD]

JCISGD, why don't you have a go at answering your own question for us, and then perhaps we will understand what you are getting at?

hi Fez, the problem with that is that i aready know what i think about it, but i wanted to know how others thought about.

The confusion arising i think is because it appears i am objecting to something personally, but im only discussing principle. I havnt taken any offense to anyone and just trying see how others think it another can condemn them?

It doesnt matter to me what others say to me, i never feel condemned, i just weigh up the proof of their claims and my mind either accepts it or rejects it.

i.e You could say im going to hell for not saving enough souls etc. Would i feel condemned or guilty? I dont think so as mty salvation is not based on works but on my heart. If i felt any guilt about it i would check my heart before Jesus and see if it was valid or not, but i wouldnt blame the guilt on someone else as its my conscience and they are not responsible for how i percieve their comments.

[JCISGD]

Botz-

You don't have to be some sort of authority to bring condemnation...there is power in your words, each of us effects other people by what we say and do, and I believed what you brought was wrong...so did 99% of the people here!

Thanks Botz, now we are getting somewhere i think. You have given me a reason, "there is power in words".

But am i responsible for how a Christian reacts, who supposedly knows and abides in Jesus and listens to His voice only?

[Botz]

Q.How is that a Christian can say someone else is condemning them or placing guilt on them.

A. There are several things that occur to me, the first is that some Believers recognize condemnation against them, and rise up against it if they believe it is un-Scriptural, and there are others who are susceptible to what looks like a persuasive biblical argument...we can see this sort of thing as 'troubling' some of the Brethren. Paul had to deal with it on a few issues, not least regarding 'circumcision'.

Q. If we know Christ then surely we only concern ourselves with what He says to us. I can understand how unbelievers can come under false condemnation and guilt as they often listen to the lies of Satan etc.

A. Because we know the L-rd, does not imply that we know all Scripture, and each of us has a unique personal relationship with Jesus that is constantly developing. The 'etc' after Satan, can also include human wisdom...Satan cannot be blamed for everything...but I am sure his minions are happy to help mis-guided doctrine find an audience when possible.

Q. Is it not deflecting or dishonest attempt to silence another voice or opinion? Jesus did not cry foul when accused of false things, He refuted them but I dont see him trying to censor anyone. Are we supposed to censor preachers we disagree with? what if they are right and it is we who need to repent or change our thinking?

A. That all depends on the situation or context..if you are about to go into battle, and some guy is telling you how weak we are and how mighty the enemy is...it sure ain't helpful, and for the sake of moral, he needs to be silenced.

I don't quite follow the censorship thing...what does this relate to? As for censoring Pastors...I think people have the opportunity to humbly confront something they hear from the pulpit that worries them or they think is wrong...also they can vote with their feet against persistantly inconsistant doctrine.

Q. If anyone here should tell me "your wrong and in danger of hell", I would merely ask them why they think so and if they can sufficiently prove to my mind they are right, I would be very grateful for the correction. But if not I would only think "oh well thats your opinion but I disagree".

Why would I take offense and accuse them of trying to condemn me or bring me under guilt. If the shoe fits wear it, but if not dont.

A. I understand what you are getting at....I think there is a very subtle difference between a mere exchange of views and opinions based around the Scriptures, and the presentation of something that seems correct, but creates confusion and binds some people in condemnation...the Spirit of Truth is being mis-represented.

Some people have a Shepherds heart, and they look out for the flock...they care about them and desire G-ds best for them. so when it seems some wild beast of a doctrine is eyeing them up for dinner, there is a tendency to do what David did and go clubbing.

Q. There will always be differing veiws on every subject, and i maintain that although we are to defend correct doctrine, censorship endangers silencing the voice of Gods messangers. The Jews did this and heard no prophet for 400 yrs B.C, asthey killed the prophets they disagreed with. Is it right that "christians" do this also?

A. Well if I could put my finger on exactly what you are alluding to it might help...but it seems you are building a rather nebulous scenario full of 'if's', and 'but's'...you really need to be more specific...eg. 'cut to the chase'. Sometimes what you ask in question form is a little like the small paragraphs at the bottom of the Watchtower magazines.

Anyway...have tried to make sure I answer all your questions as promised. Botz

[Botz]

Botz-

You don't have to be some sort of authority to bring condemnation...there is power in your words, each of us effects other people by what we say and do, and I believed what you brought was wrong...so did 99% of the people here!

Thanks Botz, now we are getting somewhere i think. You have given me a reason, "there is power in words".

But am i responsible for how a Christian reacts, who supposedly knows and abides in Jesus and listens to His voice only?

Are you your brother's keeper?

We all have a responsibilty to choose our words carefully and teach sound doctrine, bearing in mind to whom we are engaging and the possible outcome if we are unclear, or mis-understood.

You are again presuming that because a person has been saved and is a disciple of the L-rd...they only listen to His voice, I expect you draw your conclusion based on the passage of 'My sheep hear My voice....' but don't forget the many warnings about false teacher's and false doctrine that Paul had to constantly address....sheep get lost, and when they are lost, they get confused and can hurt themselves.

[JCISGD]

Botz-

You don't have to be some sort of authority to bring condemnation...there is power in your words, each of us effects other people by what we say and do, and I believed what you brought was wrong...so did 99% of the people here!

Thanks Botz, now we are getting somewhere i think. You have given me a reason, "there is power in words".

But am i responsible for how a Christian reacts, who supposedly knows and abides in Jesus and listens to His voice only?

Are you your brother's keeper?

We all have a responsibilty to choose our words carefully and teach sound doctrine, bearing in mind to whom we are engaging and the possible outcome if we are unclear, or mis-understood.

You are again presuming that because a person has been saved and is a disciple of the L-rd...they only listen to His voice, I expect you draw your conclusion based on the passage of 'My sheep hear My voice....' but don't forget the many warnings about false teacher's and false doctrine that Paul had to constantly address....sheep get lost, and when they are lost, they get confused and can hurt themselves.

Hi Botz i agree with much of what you say, and assure you i do watch my words carefully so as not to deliberatly hurt another.

Surely your not saying i am responsible for my brothers feelings? Feelings are produced by what a person thinks and surely i am not responsible for what another thinks.

If so, does it work both ways? i too could cry "condemnation" does it mean everyone must walk on egg shells incase i am offended?

WF is not a church and states that is an open forum subject to guidelines, surely it is censorous to insist one person to curtail their opinion to appease others?

Sorry Botz but i think you are over reaching and have an hyper understanding of not stumbling others or consideration of those with a weak conscience.

[Botz]

Botz-

You don't have to be some sort of authority to bring condemnation...there is power in your words, each of us effects other people by what we say and do, and I believed what you brought was wrong...so did 99% of the people here!

Thanks Botz, now we are getting somewhere i think. You have given me a reason, "there is power in words".

But am i responsible for how a Christian reacts, who supposedly knows and abides in Jesus and listens to His voice only?

Are you your brother's keeper?

We all have a responsibilty to choose our words carefully and teach sound doctrine, bearing in mind to whom we are engaging and the possible outcome if we are unclear, or mis-understood.

You are again presuming that because a person has been saved and is a disciple of the L-rd...they only listen to His voice, I expect you draw your conclusion based on the passage of 'My sheep hear My voice....' but don't forget the many warnings about false teacher's and false doctrine that Paul had to constantly address....sheep get lost, and when they are lost, they get confused and can hurt themselves.

Hi Botz i agree with much of what you say, and assure you i do watch my words carefully so as not to deliberatly hurt another.

Great...no problemo!

Surely your not saying i am responsible for my brothers feelings? Feelings are produced by what a person thinks and surely i am not responsible for what another thinks.

I don't think I have insinuated that at all...I have banged on about confusion being the result of poor biblical exegesis...and if it rears its ugly head, ones natural inclination is to try to chop it off.

If so, does it work both ways? i too could cry "condemnation" does it mean everyone must walk on egg shells incase i am offended?

What an odd way of perceiving things bro! I'm sure if you felt unjustly condemned by another, you would be able to sort it out...I had a brother recently try and slap me about with Scripture and demand an apology, it didn't fuss me, but I was not going to let him get away with it, nor the erroneous teaching he was implying...so there are times when you have to make a stand.

WF is not a church and states that is an open forum subject to guidelines, surely it is censorous to insist one person to curtail their opinion to appease others?

Fair enough....could you please give an example of where this has occurred?

Sorry Botz but i think you are over reaching and have an hyper understanding of not stumbling others or consideration of those with a weak conscience.

Hmmm, I always thought I was pretty balanced, but you might be right...again it's the first time anyone has said such a thing...I will bear what you say in mind, and weigh up things....also if there is anyone else reading this thread and feels this is true of me, please don't be shy in saying so, as I will be blessed by your honesty.

[nebula]

How is that a Christian can say someone else is condemning them or placing guilt on them.

The Judaisers (sp?) did exactly this to the Gentile believers. How many times did Paul have to address this issue, where Gentile believers were put under guilt and condemnation from some Jewish believers who insisted they (Gentiles) become circumcized in order to truly be saved? (or however it was worded)

This is an example of how a Christian can put condemnation and guilt on another.

[JCISGD]

Botz- i hope you didnt think i was dismissive or angry at your replies, far from it and i do appreciate your attitude and love shown.

I dont want to talk examples as i dont take offense to others, im only discussing principle and not trying to stop anyones opinion by force, even if they think i am condemning. What im getting at is that, isnt telling someone they are condemning another against free speech and actually a form of censorship?

If I felt condemned I would take it to the Lord.

Nebula- Paul was refuting those who were adding to salvation by insisting on circumcisson etc, but i am only disscussing right behaviour of a Christian and not their salvation. This is where i think you and others are overreaching and in danger of censorship and silencing anything you dislike with the cry of "condemnation".

Thanks both of you for your interest in the welfare of others and myself, i will continue to allow the HS to show me error through your words but for now remain unconvinced by your arguements and thoughts.

If you reply to this i will read it but may not reply as it might be overlabouring the topic.

God bless.