Nicene Creed

[Botz]

And thank you for pointing out my ungraciousness. Forgive me please.

Of course I do dear Sister...I think you are very gracious in your receptive response, hope you have a better day

[OneLight]

Don't feel too bad. I can't think of one person who doesn't have an off day!

God Bless,

Alan

[nebula]

[Rick-Parker]

When Christ rose from the dead, Heaven opened up to the spirits/souls of the faithful, while the lost remain in hell until the Great White Throne Judgment. Upon the rapture, the redeemed will receive our glorified bodies, with the bodies of the dead raising first to receive their bodies.

[BlindSeeker]

This is actually from an old thread I had -

The following are some early creeds that do not mention Jesus going to hell . . . not until around 400 A.D.

Question is, why did the early church not include this in their statement of faith it Jesus did in fact descend into hell itself. Remember, our English translations are dated mush later than 400 A.D.

THE APOSTLES' CREED

THIRD CENTURY (?)

"The Symbolum Apostolorum was developed between the 2nd and 9th centuries. It is the most popular creed used in worship by Western Christians. Its central doctrines are those of the Trinity and God the Creator. "Legend has it that the Apostles wrote this creed on the tenth day after Christ's ascension into heaven . . . each of the doctrines found in the creed can be traced to statements current in the apostolic period. The earliest written version of the creed is perhaps the Interrogatory Creed of Hippolytus below (c.215 A.D.).

INTERROGATORY CREED OF HIPPOLYTUS

Do you believe in God the Father All Governing? Do you believe in Christ Jesus, The Son of God, Who was begotten by the Holy Spirit from the Virgin Mary, Who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and die (and was buried) and rose again the third day living from the dead, and ascended into the heavens, and sat down on the right hand of God, and will come again to judge the living and the dead? Do you believe in the Holy Ghost, in the holy Church, and in the resurrection of the body?

Notice there is no mention of a descent into hell.

RULE OF FAITH

SECOND CENTURY, AS RECORDED BY IRENAEUS:

". . .this faith: in one God, the Father Almighty, who made the heaven and the earth and the seas and all the things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who was made flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who made known through the prophets the plan of salvation, and the coming, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and his future appearing from heaven in the glory of the Father to sum up all things and to raise anew all flesh of the whole human race. . ."

Again no mention of a descent into hell.

CREED OF MARCELLUS (340 A.D.)

I believe in God, All Governing; And in Christ Jesus His only begotten Son, our Lord, Who was begotten of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Marf, Who was crucified under Pontius Pilate and buried, Who rose from the dead on the third day, ascending to the heavens and taking His seat at the Father's right hand, whence He shall come to judge both the living and the dead; And (I) believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Church, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, life everlasting.

Again no mention of a descent into hell.

A BAPTISMAL CONFESSION

THIRD CENTURY, HIPPOLYTUS

"When the person being baptized goes down into the water, he who baptizes him, putting his hand on him, shall say:

[~Shalhevet~]

Very interesting, Blindseeker. I will bring this up to my pastor when I meet with him on Saturday.

[Rick-Parker]

When we talk about "hell', "hades" or "shoal" it is not the same as talking about the "lake of fire", which hell will be thrown into on the Day of the Lord.

[Botz]

'BlindSeeker'

Question is, why did the early church not include this in their statement of faith if Jesus did in fact descend into hell itself. Remember, our English translations are dated much later than 400 A.D.

I don't really know...perhaps because they could not agree that understanding it was central to their Creeds, and it drew too much unnecessary controversy.

Seeing these are all mere statements of faith I hold to none of them. While I do readily admit there is a need for the like of theology and creeds for the purpose of clarification, to me they are nothing more than that. The sure word of prophesy is the bases for my faith.

Same for me, and I should think for most of us...we recognise creeds for what they are, and leave it at that.

Here is an excerpt I'd like to share from a book on creeds I read 20 years ago or so:

". . . the nature of man is an intelligent being. "Just because he is intelligent, the Christian, of all men, has to learn to discern with agonizing clarity what is conceivable by him about God Himself" What cannot be thought through critically and expressed with reasonable clarity cannot demand the allegiance of man's whole being. Understanding is necessary for man's full commitment. Hence faith must be spoken and made intelligible. That is not to say faith must be enclosed within the limits of reason, but it does mean that faith must never require neither the closing of the mind nor the sacrifice of the integrity of the mind."

Good quote, I had to read it through several times to get the full point he was making..and yet I can think of many peoples unswerving loyalty/commitment to doctrines promoted by a Church, but far from understood with any degree of clarity by the laity...for example the idea of Mary being Queen of Heaven is repudiated by Scripture, but endorsed by a variety of Catholic thinkers, and adopted by millions of followers, in a case like this a kind of intellectual suicide has taken place and a complete and utter closing of the mind!

This statement has influenced me to try my best to understand every man's profession of faith and to share mine as simply and clearly as possible. That being said, why do you think the early creeds are silent about the belief of Jesus descending into hell. There are a lot of modern doctrines built upon this . . . like Jesus going and preaching to fallen angels in prison, sinners and snatching away the keys of death and hell from Satan.

As already stated, perhaps because it was too controversial, and there were not enough solid facts available to generate the necessary clarity. I think the word used for 'preached' is better translated 'proclaimed'...Jesus proclaimed to the captives...ie those who had died in 'faith' looking to His appearance, (not preaching some sort of second chance salvation as some believe)...maybe 'It is finished' was as relevant to those in Paradise as it was to us...their wait was over.

[BlindSeeker]

Paradise is in the underworld? Is it really a place beneath the dirt of earth?

I think not. Abraham clearly states,

[Botz]

Hi Blindseeker... I think there is some mis-understanding somewhere...from what I read in Scripture, the righteous people who were in Paradise, were not contained in a section of Hades that the Devil had any jurisdiction over...the only thing that 'captured' them was death, and it was when Jesus conquered sin and death that they were set free....and that He might have pre-eminence in everything, He led them out...and as far as I understand things at the moment (and I have great gaps in my understanding over the sequence of events) they still await ressurected bodies.

Does anyone claim Hades is literally in the earth...I've certainly never taken it to be so?

I liked what you showed about the 'Spirit of Jesus descending into Hell'...but was confused to the conclusions you were trying to arrive at...are you saying:-

1Pe 3:19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

What is clear in the verse above is that