Following OT Law

[Guest yod]

I cant really see how you have refuted what i said

I don't have to...Shaul did a good enough job already and since that is the scriptures, our opinions don't much matter.

Those were just a few verses taken from a couple of chapters in one book of the Bible...but there are literally dozens more places where it is stated that the Law is good and righteous and holy. That is the polar opposite of obsolete, void, and bondage

Shall I post those verses again? Would you mind explaining where Shaul is wrong? If you can, I'll show you more places that say the same thing these do. This is in complete harmony with the rest of the Word of God without contradiction.

Romans 2:13

for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Romans 2:14

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law.....

Romans 2:15

in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts....

Romans 2:18

and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed of the Law....

Romans 2:20

a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth....

Romans 3:31

Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 7:12

So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Romans 7:16

But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

Romans 7:22

For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

That's all from the Newer Covenant...so help me out here, bro....where does Shaul agree with the theologians you trust so much?

[Guest yod]

When will you drop your resistance to Hebrews 10:13 - "In speaking of "a new covenant," he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear. "? According to what you've proof-texted, the Mosaic covenant is still in effect and Christians are obligated to follow the law with all its miniscule regulations. You know that's wrong.

"MY" resistance? None of that was me...I just quoted what Shaul wrote in the Book to the Roman community. Evidently he disagrees with your theological heroes also?

1. "IF" you were right about how that one verse should be interpreted, then Shaul would be contradicting every other place he speaks about the Law. Of course, the other possibility is that Shaul never contradicts himself, and you are misunderstanding what he's saying. I vote that one.

Shiloh has already addressed how you're missing the point in that verse. Did you already forget the mistake you made in trying to apply that verse to the Law? The poor reasoning was already explained quite thoroughly by Shiloh so please just read that thread again.

2. I've been very careful to never say that anyone is obligated to do anything. Yes, that would be wrong if I ever did it...but I haven't in the 7 years I've been here. I'm simply showing you the verses where the scriptures say that the Law is holy, righteous, and good.

The opposite of void, obsolete, and irrelevant.

Some are saying that the Law should be ignored and that is just biblically ignorant.

From the Newer Covenant:

Acts 15:21 "For Moses is read in the synagogue every Sabbath..."

[Saved_by_Jesus]

At the risk of starting a debate (I hope not!!), do you think it is okay for a Christian to follow the laws of the OT...eating clean, observing the feasts, etc.?

I've been reading some books about it, and it's rather fascinating. I haven't gotten it all straight in my head yet, but from what I understand, God's commandments (the 10 commandments) should be followed for the simple fact that they are GOD'S laws, and not the Law of Moses, or any other Levitical man-made law that the Pharisees or Saducees came up with AFTER God gave the 10 commandments.

That is interesting that you mention this

[Saved_by_Jesus]

I found a really interesting article about how the early Christian Church was, from the book of Acts. I've wondered about this myself....I mean-shouldn't we be doing what the earliest church did, rather than what the council of Nicene ordered, so long after Jesus' crucifixion? These are just verses from Acts, that point to the keeping of the Law and Feasts. So it really seems to me that we SHOULD be keeping them.....it couldn't be clearer to me.

The earliest church in Acts

[~Shalhevet~]

Someone explain to me the purpose of following these laws if they do not make one more favorable in God's eyes and do not provide salvation. Aren't these what Hebrews refer to as dead works? These things seem like they could possibly distract us from the Lord.

[Bold Believer]

My background is Reformed Presbyterian (with some Jews for Jesus Messianic stuff and a little charismatic worship thrown in).

As I understand this matter, the moral law is still binding. The ceremonial law is not (sacrificing animals, literal ritual cleansings and so forth). When we walk in Christ by the Holy Spirit, we fulfill the spirit of the law, agreeing with it in our inner man, The Law is God's immutable standard, It is the standard which the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin. How do I KNOW when I have sinned? The Spirit tells me through His making me aware of the Law of God written in my heart. I must then offer up the Blood of Christ and confess that sin (outlined in various places in the Older Covenant).

The Law also serves to show me righteous conduct (clean) from wicked conduct (unclean). If I have question in my mind as to whether something is right to do or not to do, I can go to the Law and evaluate the deed against what the Law says. My motive is out of love, not out of obligation. Do I need to be circumcised? In heart, yes. Do I need to mikvah (be baptized)? Yes, into Christ's death and resurrection (see Romans). Sometimes, we as Christians practice the Law spiritually without even realizing it because it's in our hearts. Are we not offering up THE sacrifice for sin when we ask forgiveness (or more precisely, putting the remembrance of that once for all sacrifice before the presence of the LORD). Does our High Priest in heaven not constantly make intercession for us there in the Presence by His Blood? Do angel-priests not take our prayers as bowls of incense before the LORD? (Revelation)

Don't be hung up on the externals of the Law, be concerned with the internals and doing what is right and we will uphold the holy principles laid out there without even being aware we're doing it. External observations only sound a trumpet before us as we go, something Yeshua warned against.

[mizzdy]

So often I hear 'the law if Moses' 'the Mosaic law' as if Moses sat down one day and made a list of laws that came from his own mind. Who gave Moses those laws? I often hear we are to believe, do and follow all of Gods words including having His ways/laws/commandments written on our hearts. What is written on our hearts? If its the law of God then Gods laws were written down by Moses for all generations. Is is the law of Yeshua so many mention? didn't Yeshua say He came to do His Fathers will which included walking in Gods instructions? No one should be waking up each morning stressing about the letter of the law yet as believers are we or should we be now more aware of not breaking with His instructions, that each day we walk with Him we are given more understandings on how to please and obey God? How do we obey God without some guidelines to do so? What do we obey? I just cannot see the adversion to following after Yeshua and following Gods word. No one I know follows the letter of the law but does so with the help of the Spirit and after the spirit of the law and no one I know including myself does so for salvation or to be 'better' in the eyes of God, thats just a silly notion to start with.

[Guest yod]

GOD's first revealed written Word is the Torah. It is utter arrogance to say that man knows better than God now, so we don't "need" his instruction anymore.

This is where Yeshua explains how we are to interpret the Spirit of the Law. By human measurements, it actually becomes harder because now we are judged by intent as well as by action. It is impossible to keep the Spirit of the Law if there is no basis for the Law in the first place. Without the Torah, there is no basis for saying that gossip or murder or stealing or lying or whatever is wrong.

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Murder

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherwill be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.[d]

27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Divorce

31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[f] 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

Oaths

33"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' 34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

An Eye for an Eye

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

[priest4Him]

When will you drop your resistance to Hebrews 10:13 - "In speaking of "a new covenant," he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear. "? According to what you've proof-texted, the Mosaic covenant is still in effect and Christians are obligated to follow the law with all its miniscule regulations. You know that's wrong.

The covenants has been greatly distorted and misunderstood Rufus, to make it short, let us notice what the old covenant was not. It was not the ten Commandments, let me tell you why, because they did not wax old and vanish away (ver. 13). They did not have poor promises (ver. 6) and they were not faulty (v. 7).

Now, to understand the covenants you have to study, remember this is just a condense way to pass the info. What was the old covenant, and how was it ratified? It was an agreement between God and Israel described in Ex. 19:5-8 (I beg you to read it) whereby the people promised to keep the Ten Commandments, remember that? And it was ratified by the sprinkled blood of an ox (Ex. 24:7,8). Now, the poor promises of the people failed because they tried to obey in human strength alone. Do you see it? the "poor promises" was of the people, the people failed not the ten commandments.

In comparison, the new covenant was instituted and ratified by the blood of Jesus at His death (Heb. 12:24; 13:20; Matt. 26:28). It went into effect when He died.

Lets put this in a different way:

God make a pact (covenant) with the people.

'Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is

Mine. 6 'And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel." Ex. 19:5-6.

The people accept the covenant (pact)three times!

Then all the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do. (Exodus 19:8; Exodus 24:3; Exodus 24:7)

God give the ten Commandments:

And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God. (Ex. 31:18)

The people broke their promise (poor promises):

And the LORD said to Moses, "Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves. (Ex. 32:7)

God forgive them and make a

[priest4Him]

When will you drop your resistance to Hebrews 10:13 - "In speaking of "a new covenant," he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear. "? According to what you've proof-texted, the Mosaic covenant is still in effect and Christians are obligated to follow the law with all its miniscule regulations. You know that's wrong.

By the way, I think you are referring to Heb. 8:13?