George Fox

[JCISGD]

Sorry bad sentence structure, i meant Jesus was the only one who has never sinned.

The OT has some examples of this but Elijah, Elisha and Enoch have no record of sin, Elijah fled from Jezzebel and became depressed but that is not sin as i understand it.

Was Elijah doing God's will when he fled and begged for death?

We have no record of Enoch doing anything other than having offspring, living in close fellowship with God and being taken to heaven

There is no account of any Apostle sinning after they recieved power from on high at Pentecost.

again, we have very litte accounts of them after that. And there are things one could debate if they were a sin or not.

Andy is your life like the book of acts and are you moving in power as Jesus promised? Im not but ive always believed it to be possible if not the norm?

I have to ask, why not? This is the thing that I dont get the most about this view, you say that we can be sinless, but you are not. You say we can be "like the book of Acts" and yet you are not?

1 Jn 2:1 says "so we will not sin" and v2 is what we do if we sin. No one is saying that a Christian does not ever sin, but that does not mean the norm is sinning.

You have not responded to the many verses that prove we need not continue in sin.

What about this passage?

Romans 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do

[Seeker100]

Ive been down this road so many times and i know all the scriptures you will bring, but its going to end in stalemate of interpretation unless your willing to accept sound reasoning as well. We do not leave our reason at the door when interpreting the written language and the bible does not ask we do. In fact God Himself says "come let us reason together".

1 Jn 1:8 is only disputing anyone who claims to have never sinned apart from Jesus, and v10 goes on to challenge any who do.

I am a sound reasoner, I just don't like to deviate from what I believe are solid biblical doctrines . The bible is full of examples of people following Him, and yet sinning.

As for 1 Jn 1:18, you claim this is sinning "apart from Jesus", what do you mean by that? The passage doesn't say that. And yet, 1 Jn 2:1-2 is addressed to christians, and what happens WHEN we sin.

Sorry bad sentence structure, i meant Jesus was the only one who has never sinned.

The OT has some examples of this but Elijah, Elisha and Enoch have no record of sin, Elijahs fled from Jezzebel and became depressed but that is not sin as i understand it. There is no account of any Apostle sinning after they recieved poer from on high at Pentecost.

Andy is your life like the book of acts and are you moving in power as Jesus promised? Im not but ive always believed it to be possible if not the norm?

Have you read Fox`s journals ?

1 Jn 2:1 says "so we will not sin" and v2 is what we do if we sin. No one is saying that a Christian does not ever sin, but that does not mean the norm is sinning.

I agree, v2 is what we do if we sin. We plead to our Advocate. Doesn't this render the notion of sinless perfection redundant?

I am a bit confused now. Do you believe we must be sinless, in perfection, to be saved, or are you saying that a christian doesn't normally sin? I would disagree that there is no record of an apostle ever sinning, and even if that were true, it doesn't imply that we must be sinless for salvation. We cannot make an argument from silence. For this same reason, we can't conclude that Elijah et al are without sin either. Infact, Ro 3:23 states that they DID sin.

My life doesn't resemble the book of acts, no. But I do love, serve and follow God, or attempt to, and yes I do sin and often.

With our will we work for God. He will make us perfect in His good time. We must however serve Him as best we can. No man can have two masters. If we refuse to take up our cross and follow Jesus we reject His salvation for us. We must put God first and follow His voice and His voice is love. This is accepting His free gift of salvation. His salvation is leaving sin and becoming in union with Him. There are many degrees of this but as long as we are working with what we have we will grow. He who has will gain more. He who does not obey God where he can will lose what he has.

[Seeker100]

Christians, by the very nature of being human, do sin - they repent and are forgiven, but they are not sinless...

and... every person we meet does NOT have the love of Jesus in them.... it would be lovely if they did - but they don't. Your comments sound so very new-age and can you provide Scripture that says everyone has Jesus in them?

I am not saying that everyone has the love of Jesus in them. I am saying you can meet Jesus in everyone even if they hate Jesus you can meet Jesus in them. This happens when we become born again. Becoming born again is mystical and is a gift from the Holy Ghost.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Seeker100

[Guest LadyC]

He is explaining that without Jesus there is no fix of God in the world to serve. Thus with Jesus you can serve and meet Jesus in others literally. He is explaining the problem of everyone who serves God in their heart but doesn't have Jesus as the old testimate Jews did not and as I did before I became a Christian. With Jesus we can leave sin by serving Him who is love in each person we meet.

uh, i hate to be the one to break it to you, but one can not serve God in their heart without having Jesus as their saviour to begin with.

your theology is really in need of serious repair. God is not the "love" in every person we meet. i guess though that you've finally, in a round-about way, answered the question you have been asked a hundred times... that yes, you believe that the love of a homosexual for their lover is "God", and that the "love" that told that woman to drown her five children was "God".

[Seeker100]

Back to Word of God written on stone and ink on Papyrus for the Old Covenant, and the Living word of God written in fleshy tables of the heart for the New Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:33

But this shall be the new covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts.

John 14:25-26

These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Romans 2:14-15

When the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which show the work of the law written in their hearts

2 Corinthians 3:3-6

Ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

God also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Matthew 5 (Christ's sermon on the Mount)

Six examples taken by Christ to illustrate that the New Covenant; no longer based on rigid compliance with written statutes, would 'raise the bar' to new higher levels of Spiritual expectation.

"Ye have heard that it was said of old....BUT I SAY UNTO YOU"(six times)

Take adultery as a prime example:

"Ye have heard that it was said of old thou shalt not commit adultery.....but I say unto you that whosoever looks upon a woman with lust has committed adultery in his heart"

You want rigid adherence to words as written?

Well the Scribes and Pharisees were the greatest exponents of written word compliance, yet Christ said in this context in his Sermon on the Mount:

"Except your righteousness shall EXCEED that of the scribes and the Pharisees you shall in no wise enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Seems to me we're inclined to be a right bunch of Scribes and Pharisees.

Mike.

Good Post Mike!!

[JCISGD]

Christians, by the very nature of being human, do sin - they repent and are forgiven, but they are not sinless...

and... every person we meet does NOT have the love of Jesus in them.... it would be lovely if they did - but they don't. Your comments sound so very new-age and can you provide Scripture that says everyone has Jesus in them?

I dont think Seeker is saying all have Jesus, quite the opposite. He has only said God speaks to all but not all listen, and this imo is why the native in deepest isolation has no excuse.

I think what Seeker is saying is that as Jesus said "whatever you do to the least of these you do it to me" So no matter who we love we are loving Jesus and no matter who we hate we are hating Jesus, and "whoever does not love his neighbour does not love God".

[Guest LadyC]

We must however serve Him as best we can. No man can have two masters.

you just contradicted yourself. you said "everyone who serves God in their heart but doesn't have Jesus" (an unbiblical position, by the way) and then said no man can have two masters... (which is a biblical position).

ya can't have it both ways.

[Guest LadyC]

Christians, by the very nature of being human, do sin - they repent and are forgiven, but they are not sinless...

and... every person we meet does NOT have the love of Jesus in them.... it would be lovely if they did - but they don't. Your comments sound so very new-age and can you provide Scripture that says everyone has Jesus in them?

I dont think Seeker is saying all have Jesus, quite the opposite. He has only said God speaks to all but not all listen, and this imo is why the native in deepest isolation has no excuse.

I think what Seeker is saying is that as Jesus said "whatever you do to the least of these you do it to me" So no matter who we love we are loving Jesus and no matter who we hate we are hating Jesus, and "whoever does not love his neighbour does not love God".

no, seeker SAID that those without Jesus can still serve God.

[Seeker100]

He is explaining that without Jesus there is no fix of God in the world to serve. Thus with Jesus you can serve and meet Jesus in others literally. He is explaining the problem of everyone who serves God in their heart but doesn't have Jesus as the old testimate Jews did not and as I did before I became a Christian. With Jesus we can leave sin by serving Him who is love in each person we meet.

uh, i hate to be the one to break it to you, but one can not serve God in their heart without having Jesus as their saviour to begin with.

your theology is really in need of serious repair. God is not the "love" in every person we meet. i guess though that you've finally, in a round-about way, answered the question you have been asked a hundred times... that yes, you believe that the love of a homosexual for their lover is "God", and that the "love" that told that woman to drown her five children was "God".

uuuhh I hate to be the one to break it to you but the bible in the old testimate is full of people who served God in their hearts and they did not have Jesus.

God is love, the bible tells us so and so does His Spirit.

Why are you putting words in my mouth about homosexuals? I am not even talking about homosexuals or people who kill children etc. Please keep focused.

[Believer1997]

Christians, by the very nature of being human, do sin - they repent and are forgiven, but they are not sinless...

and... every person we meet does NOT have the love of Jesus in them.... it would be lovely if they did - but they don't. Your comments sound so very new-age and can you provide Scripture that says everyone has Jesus in them?

I dont think Seeker is saying all have Jesus, quite the opposite. He has only said God speaks to all but not all listen, and this imo is why the native in deepest isolation has no excuse.

I think what Seeker is saying is that as Jesus said "whatever you do to the least of these you do it to me" So no matter who we love we are loving Jesus and no matter who we hate we are hating Jesus, and "whoever does not love his neighbour does not love God".

Actually, I am responding to Seeker. I don't think you have an adequate grasp on what Seeker means.... at all.