What does it mean?

[nebula]

Thank you, Dave, you have clarified what the issue is for me. Appreciated. Sometimes we all just need a little help with interpretations of the communications between us.

Okay, I'll accept that Ruwach is used for Holy Spirit specifically*.

Hallelujah!

Yet, that still has me questioning: Is there anything in God that is not holy and pure? (This is in reference to the posts between OneLight and I, which I hope you did see and therefore are aware of what I mean.)

Here?

I have to ask, even though you are responding to Nebula. The Spirit of God is everywhere, being omnipresence. The spirit of man is limited to the individual. You also capitalize mans spirit as if it were deity, equal to Gods Spirit. How is it that you see the two as the same? I agree that God gave man his spirit, but it was not His Spirit.

Are you saying that God is anything but totally pure and holy. That anything in Him is of darkness?

I believe OneLight meant: "God gave man [man's] spirit, but it was not His Spirit."

Does that clarify the issue?

[Permie]

By which basis do you claim that neshamah is God's Spirit?

The verse Gen 2:7 only contains the word neshamah, which as it can be seen at that site you referenced is God's Spirit.

No, it cannot be seen.

Go to the website I referenced and look up "breath" to find "neshamah" (it's spelled n@shamah in there ifyou don't have the correct fonts).

Then click on that word to see where it is used in Scripture.

Then read the verses to which it comes from.

I still have the site up. I have just read the 24 verses that uses Neshamah, and all but 2 in Job, 1 verse in Proverbs, and 1 verse in Isaiah all mention breath as it pertains to life. The ones that don't speak of life.

I thought the following verse was appropriate.

5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out ; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein Isaiah 42:5

Please show me where "neshamah" is refers directly to the Spirit of God.

From the same site: Definition

1. breath, spirit

1. breath (of God)

2. breath (of man)

3. every breathing thing

4. spirit (of man)

The bible tells us the God is Spirit.

As I mentioned above, just because some translators used the word "spirit" instead of "breath" in their translations does not mean the Lord placed His Spirit into man in Gen. 2:7.

I do not imagine the Hebrew to be incorrect. You do know what sticklers they are about the Word don't you? A simple writing error such as a misspelling and it, the whole thing the entire scroll, was trashed.

The Hebrew is not incorrect. It is your translation we are refuting.

If the writer of Genesis meant to say God's Spirit was placed into man, he would have used the word ruwach as he did in:

Genesis 1:2 - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit [ruwach] of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Genesis 6:3 - 3 And the LORD said , My spirit [ruwach] shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh : yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Genesis 41:38 - And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit [ruwach] of God is?

These verses are all describing the "workings of the Spirit of God" as man perceives those workings i.e. Ruwach, as you have indicated.

Two different words. Ruwach, the "workings", and neshamah: breath, which the bible and that site both say are Spirit, which is God.

[OneLight]

If I may ...

The reason why it is not included is because nĕshamah, breath of life, is not ruwach, the Spirit of God. This is what we have been trying to point out.

I understand that they are two different aspects.

That doesn't change the fact that only neshamah is used in Gen 2:7.

There is no ruwach in that verse.

Why is ruwach being brought up when it isn't even used in that verse?

Because you claimed that when God breathed life (nĕshamah) into man, He gave man His Spirit (ruwach), here and again, while agreeing with Gentlewind, here.

To me, this is adding to the verse what isn't there. This causes imagination, and we are to cast down imaginations and take all thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ. Let us use the words as they are written and not add to them.

Ruwach is in many other places of the bible, appropriately.

This is a strange reply. It is not us who have stated that Gods Spirit entered Adam, but you and Gentlewind. I added nothing, but pointed to what the two of you said. Do you now deny what you earlier stated?

[Permie]

Well, guys and gals, I have to run along now. Talk to all later, Lord willing.

Have a blessed day...

Today is the day the Lord hath made! Let us be glad and rejoice in it!

[nebula]

I still have the site up. I have just read the 24 verses that uses Neshamah, and all but 2 in Job, 1 verse in Proverbs, and 1 verse in Isaiah all mention breath as it pertains to life. The ones that don't speak of life.

Right - so what gives you the leniency to call Neshamah God's Spirit?

I thought the following verse was appropriate.

5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out ; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein Isaiah 42:5

breath

nshamah (nesh-aw-maw')

a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal -- blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

upon it and spirit

ruwach (roo'-akh)

wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being

Source

That verse does not support your claim.

Please show me where "neshamah" is refers directly to the Spirit of God.

From the same site: Definition

1. breath, spirit

1. breath (of God)

2. breath (of man)

3. every breathing thing

4. spirit (of man)

The bible tells us the God is Spirit.

God is Spirit, but not "breath".

There is not a single verse that uses "neshamah" to speak of God's Spirit.

I thought you aknowledged this?

4. spirit (of man)

If nashamah meant Spirit of God, the translators would have written "spirit (of God)", not "spirit (of man)".

Two different words. Ruwach, the "workings", and neshamah: breath, which the bible and that site both say are Spirit, which is God.

You are using your argument to support your argument.

"Workings"?

Is Ruwach HaKodesh God's working?

neshamah: breath, which the bible and that site both say are Spirit

If your breath is your spirit -

Would that be oxygen, your lungs, or your capacity to inhale and exhale?

[OneLight]

I can see that some of the disagreement is when the word spirit is posted as Spirit, capital "s", as being divine or deity. Is this a mistake? We won't know until we ask, but for me, when it is typed Spirit, I take is as it is posted. It was already questioned once by me, and the reply was that the post was typed fast. I strongly suggest that before the post button is hit, that we all reread our post to see that what is going to be posted is what we really want to say. Remember, we can not read the posters mind, only the words posted.

[OneLight]

Okay, I'll accept that Ruwach is used for Holy Spirit specifically*. Yet, that still has me questioning: Is there anything in God that is not holy and pure? (This is in reference to the posts between OneLight and I, which I hope you did see and therefore are aware of what I mean.)

*I think that it might be useful here to mention that the bible is written in the language of men: how we perceive God's workings. This is what I am thinking the word Ruwach is specifically used for.

When the breath of life enter the man, it was no longer in God, but in man, who never was holy and pure.

Yes, the bible was written in the language of men, but all scripture is given by inspiration of God. It was His Holy Spirit that guided men to write His words to us. If it was mans thoughts and understanding of Gods workings, then they would not be from Him, but man. Your last statement makes me wonder ... do you believe that scripture is an exhaustive, inerrant and inspired word of God?

[nebula]

That verse where it says God breathed life into man and spirit into man...it is saying that God breathed into each of us life and our own spirits. Because we each have a spirit that is completely separate than God's Holy Spirit. But, God's Holy Spirit dwells within us at the point of Salvation and our spirit is in union with His Spirit for all eternity right?

Yes.

[Gentlewind]

Greetings Everyone~

Please note that when I precede a post with "Ummm . . .", it indicates I'm thinking deeply and giving an answer that I'm not necessarily sure of.

As I have stated previously, I have not studied the Bible so in-depth that I have searched the meaning of specific words in Hebrew. I know of doing this, but I have never done it. Following this thread makes me aware of a new journey I must begin if I want to go deeper in my understanding of scripture. I don't believe my salvation depends on taking this journey, but my desire to understand the Bible fully may.

Thank you, JamiLea, for your kind understanding. I come here to this site with my individual understanding of the Bible--my personal interpretation, yes. I realize some of my personal interpretation may be in error. I have never used a Lexicon.

Please understand that I am way behind many (perhaps all) of you in my study. It is natural to struggle against changing your belief system. It can be said to be even a 'painful' process. But . . . speaking for myself (the only one I should speak for), I am not trying to "do" anything, I have no "agenda," and (clearing her throat), I certainly am not a "satanic infiltrator."

Yes, several of us came here, together, from another site. This in itself seems to have aroused suspicion. But, please, do not group us together as one unit with an "agenda." We came from a site dedicated to unity among all Christians. However it is a Catholic owned and run site, so much Catholicism is presented, and many, many times the site became a battleground between Protestant faith and Catholic/ Othodox faith. Being somewhat of an "unstudied" Christian, a "babe" in the faith, I was cast often into a sea of confusion. I've shed real tears, and I have been tempted to throw my arms up in despair and confess that I will never understand, never sort it all out. I'm not saying I've been tempted to leave Christianity; I love Jesus too much to ever leave Him in any sense of the word; I've simply wondered if it is possible to truly understand . . . beyond my simple faith. (?)

So . . . I hope you can see why our perceived reception here by some was only adding to a lot of hurt already experienced. I was the first of our "group" to come here, and I reviewed the site and was impressed with it, and thought it looked hopeful. I invited the others here. But we are individuals, with individual beliefs and interpretations.

Some of my "group" have already run for the hills. I am stubborn and I tend to persist in most things beyond what I should. In fact, I still participate in the other site, mostly because it has taught me above all to be understanding of the fact that people come from all different places in the Christian faith and they come with very diverse understanding. Also our physical age has nothing to do at all with our "faith" age. Mostly I have learned not to make "church denomination" or "Bible interpretation" my god.

Jesus, the Messiah, the Son of the Living God, is my God.

And, yes, my "way" is often to speak from the heart. Within my head are many scriptures. I usually recall and use them by paraphrasing. Sometimes I recall what book they are from, but as good as I am with words, I have a serious inability to recall numbers. Really. I call myself 'numerically handicapped'. I am a published writer, still hoping to publish further works in the Christian Inspirational novel genre; but numbers and I don't mix well. Half the time I can't recall my own phone number, LOL. This can be quite embarrassing. Why God gave me words, but not numbers is beyond me, but who can question God?

We got off to a bad start. I've often said that before we debate on forums, it would be best to get to know one another as friends. This takes a bit of risk and a position of making yourself somewhat vulnerable, because personal knowledge of someone can also, in the wrong spirit, be used against someone. But in the proper spirit, in true Christian spirit, I believe "knowing" one another beyond words on a computer screen will make us more careful and sensitive of one another's feelings.

I called myself 'Gentlewind,' hoping for gentle treatment here.

I can only speak for myself, but I'd like to please wipe the slate clean and start over; this is my new introduction. It is made in sincerity and I hope, I pray, it will be received well. I hope by giving a little background information you will perhaps understand "me" a bit more.

God brought me here for a reason and I believe I have much to learn here, just as I did, and do, at the other site. Communicating as we are, so easily, online, with so many study resources available to us, is a true blessing of the time we live in. It also makes one aware of the sea of confusion in our faith. God put me in the middle of that sea first. I'm reaching for His hand to pull me out of it. I've learned we must try to be gentle with others, learn where they are coming from, where they are at in their walk with God, and above all else be humble and teachable.

Add forgiving to that list.

The Spirit God has given us is a very real gift. We must always strive to communicate in the Light of that Spirit. I'm learning I must pray before my fingers ever touch the keyboard on these forums. Still, at times my human inclinations get the better of me. If I have offended anyone here, I offer my apologies.

Peace to All.

In Love of Christ~

Gentlewind

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Gentlewind, I appreciate your response.

I want to add something here;

I certainly am not a "satanic infiltrator

Part of being in an online community like this is the understanding that we should not take everything said personally. That satanic infiltrators thread in it's intial post was not directed at anyone in particular as far as I could discern as a Mod here.

Let's move forward.

One of the basic premises of Worthy is that we are here for fellowship and the edification of the believer based upon the sure foundation of the Word.

I'm glad that you want to stay and I'm glad that you have a heart to grow in Grace.

Remember one thing, we do not have the advantage of full interpersonal communication here. (Ie; facial expressions or body language to examine.) Therefore, we can often misconstrue what someone is communicating. Sometimes folks say things that should be taken private. We're all susceptible to the limits of this manner of communication.

I can fully understand where your confusion could have come from in Denominations. I was a practicing Catholic when I first came here. This place has been a place of great growth for me personally and I try to Moderate it so that it will remain such a place. I now adhere to no Denomination.

I'm glad you have hung through this thread because of your Love for our Lord.

May God richly bless your further understanding.

Peace,

Dave