Sabbath or Sunday ?

[savedgeezer]

I did not read all the posts, but here is some info that might help with your decisions about the sabbath.

WorldNetDaily Exclusive

Anti-Judaism at root of 'Sunday Sabbath'?

4th century church banned observing Saturday at risk of excommunication

Posted: March 16, 2008

5:25 pm Eastern

WorldNetDaily

When Samuele Bacchiocchi, a Seventh-Day Adventist, immersed himself in the research of how the biblical Sabbath moved from Saturday to Sunday, he did so in an unlikely environment for a non-Catholic

[Guest yod]

I thought everyone knew that? It was this exactly study that led me to faith when I was an atheist.

As an atheist, I was certain that there was something rotten in the church and set out to prove it. I began studying church history and got most of my information from the Catholic Encyclopedia (about 65 HUGE volumes of books available online nowadays)

I spent 4 months obsessively studying church history and it only confirmed my predisposition. The problem was, I needed to read the Bible to confirm what the church was supposed be.

That was my achilles heel. Once I had seen the truth in the Word, I could not unsee it. So my research led me to some important conclusions

1. Man is corrupt no matter what religious institutions may say about being guided by the Holy Spirit (apart from His Word)

2. God's Word is pure Truth and His ways are life...and that more abundantly.

3. Trusting in any institution, including the "church" (as defined by post-biblical theology) is a big mistake.

4. God's grace and His blood removes our sin completely.

5. The rest will be washed by the water of the Word as we endeavor to walk out our trust in Him.

[Guest yod]

How do today's top Christian pastors refute the evidence the Sabbath is still in effect?

by using post biblical theology

Greg Laurie, a Calvary Chapel pastor with one of the largest congregations in the country in Southern California, as well as a weekly columnist at WND, says there are three reasons Christians do not observe the Sabbath:

It is the only commandment not repeated in the New Testament.

Jesus never taught anyone to keep the Sabbath.

The apostles never taught anyone to keep the Sabbath.

The Sabbath, he says, is a "shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."

I respect Greg Laurie but that is a greek interpretation of hebraic concepts.

Yeshua instituted the Sabbath and never rejected it or taught anyone to do so. If He had done so, He couldn't have been a sinless sacrifice.

In Israel, saying "you should keep the Sabbath" would be like saying "you should drink water sometime". Israel had been taken into captivity by Babylon for not keeping Sabbath. They knew the results of breaking the Sabbath were as real as the laws of gravity. There was no reason to mention it to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. They were already observing Shabbat.

Now, having said that, I'm not going as far as the 7th Day Adventist crowd who say that going to church on Sunday is the mark of the beast, but there is absolutely no justification for changing God's Sabbath to the Pope's sabbath.

My position is that "go to church day" has no relation whatsoever to the Sabbath. We are free to assemble in His name whenever we wish and have a clean conscience about it! That doesn't make the Sabbath any less eternal though. It has not and never will be changed, (though time will be reCreated at some point future) nor is it a matter of what "we" decide. God, as the Creator, can choose whatever time or season He wishes and His people will conform to that one way or the other.

And we should always have grace towards anyone who doesn't have the same conviction....yet.

Isaiah 66:23

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

[Floatingaxe]

Colossians 2:16

So don

[Guest FinalCryMinistries]

God rested on the seventh day. History cannot be changed. God said that the reason He blessed and sanctified the seventh day is because in it He rested from all His work of creation (Gen. 2:3). Man can neither remove nor shift God's blessings, nor can man at any time UN-sanctify what God has set aside for holy use. HE called the seventh day the Sabbath. (Exodus 20:16). The only way the seventh day Sabbath can be changed into a first day Sabbath is to change history and show that God changed the day that He rested to the first day instead of the seventh. Can your birthday be changed? To change the celebration of your birthday to a day other than your birthday would be to project a lie that you were born on a day that you were not. The only reason a person would want to do this is to deceive others into believing that a person is older or younger than he actually is. This of course is deception from the enemy. It is a Biblical and historical fact that God rested on the seventh day. Changing calendars around can no more change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday than it can change the birthday of the world to a day after it was created. Why would the resurrection on Easter Sunday be reason enough to change the fourth commandment Sabbath from the seventh day to the first day? We just saw why God chose the seventh day to be His holy Sabbath. Did not God finish His work and rest on the seventh day? Which historical fact or facts changed and brought about a need to alter the Sabbath and the history books and the heavenly records to reflect a need for a new Sabbath day? Even in death Christ rested in the tomb on the seventh day Sabbath. Sunday is the first day after the rest day. This is why Paul told them to gather their means on Sunday, not on the Sabbath. When a Bible text appears to suggest anything to the contrary, a prayerful reexamination will reveal the truth. Bible principle does not change. If such a change was of God, the New Testament would be full of texts upholding the change. Paul would have told all who would hear him about such a life changing NEW LAW that would affect so many who were totally convinced that the seventh day was the unchangeable, historical Sabbath. All of the New Testament writers would have had a tough job to do, convincing the people through lots of documentation and visions that God the Almighty has changed one of His Ten Commandments, by moving His rest day to a day after He rested. What do you think? God is love. God is fair. God is extremely patient. God is all knowing. God is perfect and incapable of mistreatment or mistake. Can a God with all of these attributes pay out the wrong wages? Who will be paid the wages of sin? Is God capable of sending someone to hell who doesn't deserve to go? Those who will be lost in hell will have first had the opportunity to clear sin from their lives through the help of Jesus. First, God must make sure that the lost understand that sin is the transgression of the law and that the wages of sin are death. Why would God set aside a day for holy use and then remove His sanctification and place it on another day without rewriting the stone tablets? If the resurrection of Jesus was designed from the start to bring an end to the seventh day Sabbath and start a first day Sabbath in its place, would God be organized enough to tell all of the prophets of the old AND New Testaments to prepare His people for such a momentous change? After about 4,000 years of seventh day Sabbath keeping, would God Almighty expect His people to make a sudden change to another day without being taught of the coming change by the prophets? If the resurrection of Jesus brought about a Sabbath change, then Jesus Himself should have been teaching this to all who would hear Him. Sunday keeping by professed Christians didn't start until years after the resurrection. Could this mean that God secretly changed His law without sufficiently preparing His people for a change in the definition of sin? Sin is the transgression of the law and a change in the law IS a change in what sin is declared to be (first John 3:4). Each time God would change the law, that which is sin must also change. If the Sabbath today is Sunday, then the fourth Commandment must now read that the FIRST day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. The old tables of stone would be no longer valid and those who obeyed the old fourth Command would be living in sin. This is a very serious issue and it is shameful that so many professed Christians don't think much of it. Here is something to ponder. Satan is a liar and a counterfeiter. Sunday is his counterfeit Sabbath. Since the wages of sin is death and sin is the transgression of the law, logic dictates that ONE CAN ONLY BE LOST FOR BREAKING GOD'S LAW. So, the mark of the beast cannot harm a soul unless it involves the breaking of the law, which is sin. Now we know that 666 fertilizer cannot be the mark of the beast. The mark of the beast must be something that the beast institutes that cause the people to sin by obeying it. Those who keep the Ten Commandments and have faith in Jesus, while accepting the spirit of prophecy, which is the writings of the prophets, will not need to worry about receiving the Mark of the Beast, because they will have the Seal of God. If Adam had sinned in breaking the seventh day Sabbath and Jesus would have sinned in breaking it, how in the world can we break it today and not be guilty of sin? Every time a lamb was sacrificed on the altar, the sinner knew that one day Jesus would come and put an end to that temporary system, for it was only a type that pointed to Jesus the antitype. God's people knew that the annual sacrificial Sabbath days were temporary and only meant to last until Jesus came. They knew this was why God had them written in a book instead of on stone with His permanent law. After all of the instruction that God gave for hundreds of years through His prophets, do you think that God just changed His mind or do you believe that He gave sufficient notice that at the death and resurrection of Jesus, the seventh day as all His people knew it, would no longer be sanctified (set aside for holy use), but that the first day was to take its place? From that moment, the books in heaven would have had to make a shift. THE WEEK THAT JESUS DIED WOULD HAVE HAD TO HAVE TWO SABBATHS. Christ rested in the tomb on the seventh day Sabbath and He would have risen on the first day Sabbath. So, the women who came to the tomb to finish their work would have been breaking the first Sunday Sabbath by bringing spices to finish what they delayed because of the seventh day Sabbath. Surely Jesus would have told His mother to treat Sunday as she would Saturday. There is no such record in all of scripture. When the Marys came to the tomb to work, why didn't the Lord rebuke them for breaking the FIRST NEW SUNDAY SABBATH? Instead He told Mary to go and tell the others of His resurrection. Did Jesus forget that He just changed the Sabbath and that Mary was coming to break it? Of course not. Jesus never changed the law. He fulfilled it by completing the sacrificial system's requirements and He obeyed all ten commandments. May God be with us all. Amen.

Gary

Edited February 12, 2009 by FinalCryMinistries

[BlindSeeker]

. . . no one was commanded to observe the Sabbath until Mt. Sinai in Exodus 31 . . .

Can you show me where any of the ten commandments were "commanded" before then as well?

Was Cain under a "Thou shalt not kill?"

How could he be convicted of murder if there wasn't a law?

What about stealing, lying, idolatry before Sinai?

[BlindSeeker]

. . . no one was commanded to observe the Sabbath until Mt. Sinai in Exodus 31 . . .

Can you show me where any of the ten commandments were "commanded" before then as well?

Was Cain under a "Thou shalt not kill?"

How could he be convicted of murder if there wasn't a law?

What about stealing, lying, idolatry before Sinai?

Your point being? You cannot argue a Biblical point from the position of silence. God may well have given Adam, Eve and their offspring rules such as not killing, not worshipping idols, etc. He obviously did, or He would not have banished Cain for killing Abel. But we are not told about them. They are not codified so that we know of them, until later in Exodus. So claiming that there was a Sabbath before Mt. Sinai means nothing without clear scripture telling us so. All you have in creation, without cooberating scripture is a prototype.

I think you made my point.

However, the 4th commandment is the only one that comes with an expressed "remember." There is no "Remember, no idols" or "Remember not the kill" or "Remember not to lie."

.

[EricH]

. . . no one was commanded to observe the Sabbath until Mt. Sinai in Exodus 31 . . .

Can you show me where any of the ten commandments were "commanded" before then as well?

Was Cain under a "Thou shalt not kill?"

How could he be convicted of murder if there wasn't a law?

What about stealing, lying, idolatry before Sinai?

Your point being? You cannot argue a Biblical point from the position of silence. God may well have given Adam, Eve and their offspring rules such as not killing, not worshipping idols, etc. He obviously did, or He would not have banished Cain for killing Abel. But we are not told about them. They are not codified so that we know of them, until later in Exodus. So claiming that there was a Sabbath before Mt. Sinai means nothing without clear scripture telling us so. All you have in creation, without cooberating scripture is a prototype.

I think you made my point.

However, the 4th commandment is the only one that comes with an expressed "remember." There is no "Remember, no idols" or "Remember not the kill" or "Remember not to lie."

.

That is because we are being asked to remember the significance of the day. It makes grammatical sense

[BlindSeeker]

That is because we are being asked to remember the significance of the day. It makes grammatical sense

Well that one's perspective.

If that were true, then why then do we no longer "remember the significance of the day?"

[Bold Believer]

I'd say it's an either or situation. We're not under Law so whether we worship on Saturday or Sunday is up to us. Jewish Believers gather on Shabbat. Gentile Believers gather on the first day. Whichever day one feels most comfortable with and/or your conscience dictates. As long as we gather.