Sabbath or Sunday ?

[JCISGD]

All i can say to that Yod is your wrong,

well of course that's all you can say since all you have is your opinion.

There is ample biblical and historical evidence to prove beyond doubt that the Holy Spirit led the earliest of Christians to gather on the Lords day for their intimate fellowship.

1. But that isn't what we're debating, is it? I already addressed that issue in my last post. However, if there was ample proof that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday, (which is what we are discussing) you would have shown it. You can't because it isn't in the scriptures.

Ample proof provided in my next post

2. And by the way, there is no way to prove that "the Lord's Day" is speaking of any other day than a Sabbath. There are no clues to exactly what day of the week Yochanan might have been referring to, so I will choose to assume it's the Sabbath since Sunday was never the Lord's "day" at any time previous to his writing this phrase.

You are asking for absolute proof, but the clear intention of the writer in mentioning certain facts and practices, is as we know devinely inspired and sufficient evidence to go on. Asking for an express command where enough light is shed is deliberate unbelief. Genesis does not tell us marriage was instituted by God but we can know that it was by the mention of Adams children taking wives, as opposed to shacking up.

[BlindSeeker]

Hi BlindSeeker Sorry you think it either laziness or taking liberties to abbreviate board names i will use your full name in future. I dont think it laziness/liberty but it is uncharitable if you dislike it from me. I would not do this of your actual name.

Before you judge me as uncharitable, why not just be charitable yourself and respect it for what it is. If you would not do it with my given name, why would you do it with my taken name for identity here? We all know what

[Guest yod]

Acts 20:7 " Now on the first day of the week, when the discioples came together to break bread"....

This is communion in according to Christs commands, and is scriptural light to show this day was the day they broke bread and shared the cup. Remembering that no such ordinance was held in the synagogues nor would it have been tolerated.

you have only served to show that the sabbath was still being observed since jews (Paul and all the Apostles teaching the gentiles) would never travel or exchange money on the Sabbath.

I also addressed this just a few posts ago. As mentioned, the first day of the week begins at evening on Saturday and is known as "motza-shabbat". If we followed your logic then the "church" should be meeting on Saturday nights.

This practise of meeting on Saturday evening is an ancient time for the celebrating of fellowship after the Sabbath. You know what that means? They were still observing the Sabbath as a day of rest and this is easily supported by the scriptures....

Acts 1:12

Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

The Mount of Olives is about a 1/4 mile from the old city of Jerusalem. I've walked it before and it takes about 30 minutes This term, "sabbath day's journey", refers to the length of a walk allowed on the Sabbath. Jews simply don't travel on the Sabbath because this is considered work. Even today, most jews live within a "sabbath day's journey" (walking) to their local synagogues. For this reason, the jewish believers may not have met with their gentile friends on Shabbat because it was too far to walk...and perhaps even vice versa. We don't know exactly...but there is much evidence of gentiles going to the synagogue on the Sabbath.

So you listed 3 places where they met on the first day of the week but none of them mentions that the Sabbath had been changed...or that they were meeting for anything other than enjoying each other's company.

And again, there is no evidence in the scriptures that this was the revolutionary break with the past you presume. You cite greco-theological opinions about the work of Christ in resurrection superceding the work of Christ in creation and that is a nice sentimental opinion...but it contradicts the Word of God which still makes no mention of this changing the Sabbath to Sunday.

I'll see your 3 mentions of the first day and raise you 4 more. In other words, I can cite more examples of them meeting on Shabbat than you can cite of them meeting on Sunday

Acts 13:14

But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down

Acts 13:42

And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:44

And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21

For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Acts 16:13

And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

Acts 17:2

And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 18:4

And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

1 Cor 16:2 " On the first day of the week let each one of you lay aside something"....

Here is the one I like the most. Churches meet on Sunday not because it is the Sabbath, but because it is collection day. Yet they stop obeying God at that point because EVERY COLLECTION ever mentioned in the New Covenent scriptures was to help the jewish remnant in Israel. Why do they change the Sabbath because of this verse yet stop their acceptance of this verse at that point?

Here is the problem we have;

You are using the greco-church definition of what "church" is. In the book of Romans we see that a schism has already begun developing between the jews and the greeks (all gentiles are called this because it refers to Greek philosophical attitudes rather than the nation of Greece).

This schism continued growing until eventually the predominantly greco-church imposed a racist agenda of not allowing jews to do anything jewish. It is easily provable that this is established in laws, edicts, councils, and other decision from the "church"

From about the 3rd century onward, the "church" became something other than the biblical definition of the words translated as "church".

And since that time the word "church" has come to mean a "specifically christian religious institution separate and greater than Israel" but I challenge you to find that in the pages of holy writ (scriptures).

The definition for the assembly of Yeshua in the Word of God is "the commonwealth of Israel"

We, the nations, are joined to the faithful remnant of Israel and NOT the other way around. You simply have this confused because this is what has been taught in the greco-church since the early centuries. Over the centuries of time known as "the Dark Ages" european theologians (who were overwhelmingly anti-semetic) changed the definitions of many things through the use of theological commentary including but not limited to the Sabbath.

This is easily provable using only the scriptures and not a single post-biblical commentary.

[JCISGD]

You havnt proved anything other than that Paul did go to the synagogoes on the seventh day as well as meeting with the Christians on sunday the first day of the week.

The LORDs Day is the day he rose from the grave and this is the first day of the week and cannot be both the seventh and the first. Did God rest on the seventh day or not?

I have not attempted to use any commentaries nor do i use them myself, the thesis i alluded to was using biblical proof for its claims and objections, but you have dismissed it without looking.

There is no command to change day nor do we need one when sufficient light is offered by other texts. You are completly overlooking the historical evidence also that the earliest Church fathers all kept the first day observance and some like Paul continued to use the seventh day to preach to the unsaved Jews.

Paul was working for the LORD on both these days and would have taken another day of the week to rest spend in quiet with God. Had he not he would be violating the command to do no work one day a week.

I am fully comfortable with what God has shown me and my conscience is clear about it, so while i do not judge you for whatever day you keep, anyone trying to put their sabbath on me by law is violating the express command to judge no one in holy days.

[Guest lovinghim4ever]

Did God rest on the seventh day or not?

Yes, God rested on the seventh day!

Genesis 2:2 . . . "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made;

and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made."

However, how many of us truly follow His example by RESTING on the seventh day?

Rest means . . . a bodily state characterized by minimal functional and metabolic activities;

freedom from activity or labor; a state of motionlessness or inactivity.

We don't REST . . . we work or play . . . we certainly don't exercise freedom from activity or labor.

So, when do we rest?

Sunday is not a day of REST. It is a day of worship. It is a day filled with activity.

It is a day of busy-ness . . .. getting ready for church, going to church, participating in church service,

going out to eat after church, etc. No, I am not saying we shouldn't go to church.

I am saying . . . When do we REST?

Some don't even go to church.

They go fishing or camping or playing or whatever they may feel that day.

Although I like fishing and camping and playing and such . . . to me, that is not REST.

So, when do WE rest?

[Guest yod]

The LORDs Day is the day he rose from the grave and this is the first day of the week

Prove it using the scriptures. You can't....it is an assumption. That has been taught in greco-church for centuries so I understand why you think that...but it's not provable and therefore it is only conjecture

I have not attempted to use any commentaries nor do i use them myself, the thesis i alluded to was using biblical proof for its claims and objections, but you have dismissed it without looking.

All you have offered in defense of your position is your opinion, some references to a thesis you can't produce, and post-biblical commentaries of european gentiles. You haven't been able (and can't) support them with the scriptures because it simply isn't there....

You are completly overlooking the historical evidence also that the earliest Church fathers all kept the first day observance and some like Paul continued to use the seventh day to preach to the unsaved Jews.

The early "church fathers" were almost all anti-semetic and promoted bigotry. I have no regard for them whatsoever.

On the other hand, you intentionally overlook the historical fact that the earliest DISCIPLES, APOSTLES, AND EVANGELISTS observed the Sabbath...every single one of them. Not to mention the Feasts of God.

The ORIGINAL "church" also did.

Paul was working for the LORD on both these days and would have taken another day of the week to rest spend in quiet with God. Had he not he would be violating the command to do no work one day a week.

Now you will presume to change the Word of God? It doesn't say "one day a week". It says Sabbath (which means 7th in hebrew)

I am fully comfortable with what God has shown me and my conscience is clear about it, so while i do not judge you for whatever day you keep, anyone trying to put their sabbath on me by law is violating the express command to judge no one in holy days.

I"m fully comfortable in saying that you are afraid of the truth because it shakes your greco-church world. There is nothing to fear from the truth, ever.

I have never judged someone for the day they choose to honor God since all days are His....and I have no idea why you think anyone is trying to "put their sabbath" on you.

My disagreement with you is based on your unwillingness to be intellectually honest about what day the Sabbath is. What you do with that information is none my concern, and frankly, I have no problem whatsoever with going to church on Sunday myself.

I used to do that so I'd have the Sabbath (Saturday) for resting....nowadays I don't get many weekends off. But that doesn't change the fact of when the Sabbath actually is.

[BlindSeeker]

The LORDs Day is the day he rose from the grave and this is the first day of the week and cannot be both the seventh and the first. Did God rest on the seventh day or not?

Jesus rose on the Sabbath at dusk as the sun was setting and the new day was dawning (beginning - night first than day)

Mt 28:1

In the end of the sabbath

, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Ge 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening

[1st]

and the morning

[2nd]

were the first day.

The Lord's day, the resurrection day and the Sabbath are all the same day.

Mt 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Mr 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Lu 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

[JCISGD]

Did God rest on the seventh day or not?

Yes, God rested on the seventh day!

Genesis 2:2 . . . "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made;

and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made."

However, how many of us truly follow His example by RESTING on the seventh day?

Rest means . . . a bodily state characterized by minimal functional and metabolic activities;

freedom from activity or labor; a state of motionlessness or inactivity.

We don't REST . . . we work or play . . . we certainly don't exercise freedom from activity or labor.

So, when do we rest?

Sunday is not a day of REST. It is a day of worship. It is a day filled with activity.

It is a day of busy-ness . . .. getting ready for church, going to church, participating in church service,

going out to eat after church, etc. No, I am not saying we shouldn't go to church.

I am saying . . . When do we REST?

Some don't even go to church.

They go fishing or camping or playing or whatever they may feel that day.

Although I like fishing and camping and playing and such . . . to me, that is not REST.

So, when do WE rest?

Hi again Blindseeker, My sabbath is not a day of activity as many of my christian friends is, as i do not do unnescessary things on that day, and i usually enjoy an afternoon nap. I avoid hyped up worship and if i was in ministry i would take another day as my sabbath.

God bless

[JCISGD]

In reply to your other post Blindseeker, does this mean the prophecy that He would be in the grave 3 days mean only two ?

He was crucified on the six day and the Jews asked to have him in the tomb before the seventh day started at 6 pm as you correctly state.

So also it was not untill after 6 pm before the stone was rolled away, this being the first day making it true that Jesus spent a part of 3 seperate days in the grave.

Hi Yod, you are wrong to say you know my motives and that discredits you in my eyes, i am fully convinced of my position as you are of yours.

I will leave it at that.

[Guest lovinghim4ever]

My sabbath is not a day of activity as many of my christian friends is, as i do not do unnescessary things on that day, and i usually enjoy an afternoon nap. I avoid hyped up worship and if i was in ministry i would take another day as my sabbath.

God bless