Why America MUST fall

[oldzimm]

That is a good question Blindseeker and is there an answer to the question? It would take somebody that spent many nights burning the midnight oil, studying the Bible to really give a good answer. This same question has been tossed around for over two hundred years without an answer yet.

Why did the colonist rebel against the King of England? To wrap it all up in a nutshell, I would say FREEDOM. Plus IMHO God had a hand in this creation of a new country or he would of never allowed it to happen. England had us out gunned, had more skillful soldiers then we did, yet we never gave up and went on to win the war.

It has been a long time since I had American history class (2 score+) but I remember one instance when the Continental Army was trapped by the English Army on I believe Long Island (not sure about it being L.I.) and the chances of us being defeated were great. Gen. George Washington turned to God and prayed (I'm sure our kids aren't now being taught this) for help to escape a sure defeat. That night a fog rolled in, allowing the Continental Army to retreat to the mainland undetected. Because of this little part in our history, I never second guessed the fact that God was all for us in our quest for freedom.

We should also ask ourselves would we be better off now if England would have won the war? Would the world be better off if England won the war? What would've been the outcome of WW1 and WW2 (if there was an WW2)? Would German be our official language? Could it be God used the USA to save the Jews from Hitlers plan of their extermination? The list could go on and on, but there is no answer to any of these questions, because we can't change the past, one can only speculate.

Verses I found in the Bible that might have something pertaining to the subject is Romans 8:20,21.

20 For the creation (USA) was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it (England), in hope 21 that the creation it self will be liberated from bondage to decay (our current state) and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

[Matthitjah]

What then is an acceptable scriptural foundation for the revolt of the settlers against the King of England that would keep the birth of this nation (America) from one rooted in rebellion to the righteous precepts of scriptures?

I don't know how to answer your question. Or even what you are looking for. That's why I asked for your answer to your own question.

What I am looking for is simply what was asked, "What is an acceptable scriptural foundation for the revolt of the settlers against the King of England . . . "

If I knew of a scriptural answer I would give it, but I do not.

But with the wide acceptance of many that this is/was a Christian nation founded by God, I would expect there would be some scriptural justification.

To me, this is the verse that describe America's conception -

Re 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and

the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Such is the way the dragon's kingdom came into being . . . rebellion.

Brother,

Does this apply to Britain before us, and the Ottoman Empire before them, and the Roman Empire before them, and the Greek Empire before them, and the Medo/Persian Empire before them, and the Babylonians before them, as well as the U.S. Empire?

peace,

dave

[BlindSeeker]

What then is an acceptable scriptural foundation for the revolt of the settlers against the King of England that would keep the birth of this nation (America) from one rooted in rebellion to the righteous precepts of scriptures?

I don't know how to answer your question. Or even what you are looking for. That's why I asked for your answer to your own question.

What I am looking for is simply what was asked, "What is an acceptable scriptural foundation for the revolt of the settlers against the King of England . . . "

If I knew of a scriptural answer I would give it, but I do not.

But with the wide acceptance of many that this is/was a Christian nation founded by God, I would expect there would be some scriptural justification.

To me, this is the verse that describe America's conception -

Re 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and

the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Such is the way the dragon's kingdom came into being . . . rebellion.

Brother,

Does this apply to Britain before us, and the Ottoman Empire before them, and the Roman Empire before them, and the Greek Empire before them, and the Medo/Persian Empire before them, and the Babylonians before them, as well as the U.S. Empire?

peace,

dave

Please define what you mean by "this." I will give you might thoughts once I am clear on your question.

[BlindSeeker]

That is a good question Blindseeker and is there an answer to the question? It would take somebody that spent many nights burning the midnight oil, studying the Bible to really give a good answer. This same question has been tossed around for over two hundred years without an answer yet.

Why did the colonist rebel against the King of England? To wrap it all up in a nutshell, I would say FREEDOM.

1Co 7:21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.

22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.

23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

24 Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.

Plus IMHO God had a hand in this creation of a new country or he would of never allowed it to happen.

What God permits is not always what God is doing (see bottom scripture).

. . . England had us out gunned, had more skillful soldiers then we did, yet we never gave up and went on to win the war.

It has been a long time since I had American history class (2 score+) but I remember one instance when the Continental Army was trapped by the English Army on I believe Long Island (not sure about it being L.I.) and the chances of us being defeated were great. Gen. George Washington turned to God and prayed (I'm sure our kids aren't now being taught this) for help to escape a sure defeat. That night a fog rolled in, allowing the Continental Army to retreat to the mainland undetected. Because of this little part in our history, I never second guessed the fact that God was all for us in our quest for freedom.

Which is why I ask about scriptural justification in light of the exhortations of the scriptures.

We should also ask ourselves would we be better off now if England would have won the war? Would the world be better off if England won the war? What would've been the outcome of WW1 and WW2 (if there was an WW2)? Would German be our official language? Could it be God used the USA to save the Jews from Hitlers plan of their extermination? The list could go on and on, but there is no answer to any of these questions, because we can't change the past, one can only speculate.

True, there are no solid answers to the questions you asked. But that doesn't negate the scripture I submitted or answer the question I submitted either. However, I would think there should be something in scriptures where by it could be justified if it was truly the working of God.

Verses I found in the Bible that might have something pertaining to the subject is Romans 8:20,21.

20 For the creation (USA) was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it (England), 21 in hope that the creation it self will be liberated from bondage to decay (our current state) and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

I find that a hard one to accept as applicable, not saying it isn't, just it isn't hitting me between the eyes. But I really do appreciate your consideration and attempt to reason this through. I know some think I'm must be up to something by asking, but I am not. I just believe America is the 8th Beast in Rev 13-18 destined for destruction . . . and like I posted the verse clearly say that whatever nation or empire that is which God allowed to come to pass, it was the dragon who gave it its seat, power and great authority -

Re 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

[traveller]

I find that a hard one to accept as applicable, not saying it isn't, just it isn't hitting me between the eyes. But I really do appreciate your consideration and attempt to reason this through. I know some think I'm must be up to something by asking, but I am not. I just believe America is the 8th Beast in Rev 13-18 destined for destruction . . . and like I posted the verse clearly say that what ever nation or empire that is which God allowed to come to pass, it was the dragon who gave it its seat, power and great authority -

Re 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

If America is the 8th beast, does it have to have come about from its founding? Most nations have rebelled and warred for their borders and sovereignty. Granted, the ones that achieved superpower status did so by expanding their coffers and their borders. But, the colonists warred to break from a superpower. This was due to taxation and undue hardships placed on the people and perhaps could have been worked out differently. However, the pilgrims that first arrived here did so in search of a land where they could worship as they felt led. They broke from the Church of England over a hundred years before the war.

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

There is your scripture for why the original men and women came here. I believe it was their influence that helped to shape the beginnings of the nation, and made way for some men to valiantly fight for the new laws. Some of these men were believers. Some were not. All men must work independently with God concerning their actions and deeds. So, while God shapes nations and positions them for His ultimate plan, men within that nation have to allow God to order their steps.

What about Germany? Was it founded in order to give rise to Hitler? or Uganda for Idi Amin? Or Cambodia for Pol Pot? Italy for Mussolini? Or dozens more that brought about great murders and hardships on the people? Instead, does not the enemy work in the governments of all nations (beginning with Babylon) in order to topple the plans of God, to thwart the affairs of men?

I'm just saying that perhaps the enemy has been working in every nation to bring about his destruction, and it is in the cycle of change that we see the evidence as we watch nations fall from democracy into revolution into dictatorship.

I too believe that America is the 8th beast. However, our opinions differ on how that came to be, and when the dragon "gave him his power and seat and great authority."

[BlindSeeker]

I find that a hard one to accept as applicable, not saying it isn't, just it isn't hitting me between the eyes. But I really do appreciate your consideration and attempt to reason this through. I know some think I'm must be up to something by asking, but I am not. I just believe America is the 8th Beast in Rev 13-18 destined for destruction . . . and like I posted the verse clearly say that whatever nation or empire that is which God allowed to come to pass, it was the dragon who gave it its seat, power and great authority -

Re 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

If America is the 8th beast, does it have to have come about from its founding?

Perhaps a clear defining of

[Matthitjah]

What then is an acceptable scriptural foundation for the revolt of the settlers against the King of England that would keep the birth of this nation (America) from one rooted in rebellion to the righteous precepts of scriptures?

I don't know how to answer your question. Or even what you are looking for. That's why I asked for your answer to your own question.

What I am looking for is simply what was asked, "What is an acceptable scriptural foundation for the revolt of the settlers against the King of England . . . "

If I knew of a scriptural answer I would give it, but I do not.

But with the wide acceptance of many that this is/was a Christian nation founded by God, I would expect there would be some scriptural justification.

To me, this is the verse that describe America's conception -

Re 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and

the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Such is the way the dragon's kingdom came into being . . . rebellion.

Brother,

Does this apply to Britain before us, and the Ottoman Empire before them, and the Roman Empire before them, and the Greek Empire before them, and the Medo/Persian Empire before them, and the Babylonians before them, as well as the U.S. Empire?

peace,

dave

Please define what you mean by "this." I will give you might thoughts once I am clear on your question.

Bro,

Sorry for taking so long to reply but it appears that your are advocating the theory that America is Mystery Babylon. IMO, God set's up whom He will and God takes down whom He will for His purposes and His greater Glory and plan for mankinds Salvation.

Peace,

Dave

[Guest shiloh357]

What I am looking for is simply what was asked, "What is an acceptable scriptural foundation for the revolt of the settlers against the King of England . . . "

The Declaration of Independence lists 27 grievances against the Crown and it was those grievances that not only formed the basis of war with England, but each grievance is addressed in the Constitution.

There is no Scripture that we can claim as justification for war with England. However we can prove that it was a just war that we fought agasint England. We don't really even need the Bible to justify the Revolution against England.

However, the founding Fathers echoed the Scriptures in many of their documents and speeches. You can find repeated references from Scripture in the words of our founders at www.wallbuilders.com where you can find all kinds of historical documents and transcripts of speeches from our founders.

[traveller]

I am open to consider that "when" it transpired may yet need to be more clearly defined. I find it interesting that the rise of the beast from the sea in Rev 13 straightway mentions the deadly wound to it head, which to me was the provoking of Japan to war and the attack on Pearl harbor whereby thousands were needlessly killed/sacrificed for the war agenda.

However, what separates one nation from anther is often the place it places in the sovereignty God allowing it to exist according to His wisdom and purposes. Not all nations can be the 8th beast headed for destruction, not all nations are mentioned in scriptures, and not all have had such a close affiliation with Israel only to turn on her in these last days.

Still, given the gravity of the subject, I appreciate your submittal and hope others will continue to present their perspectives.

Thanks for the reply.

This is probably going to be somewhat of a different post than what you're used to, and I apologize for that. I'm going to be thinking out loud here.

For a long time I've wondered about the moving and changing of nations. Clearly the Lord does this, and to His purpose.

Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Act 17:26

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

I have always read the bolded part to mean that God places men in specific times, in specific nations where they will have the best chance of finding Him. It makes sense to me that God would similarly place men in nations to a specific end, for His purpose.

We have seen nations that were based on a democratic rule, or a ruling family, break down in communication and exchange of ideas and authority goes out the door - then anarchy results. Dictators rise from anarchy.

Could not the "seat" be established at this point? Or the power given at a time when the people are so distracted?

It is my belief that this nation was created for a time unlike any other. It rose against the tide, despite the odds, and survived to house some great orators of the faith. America sent out thousands to be "witnesses to the uttermost parts of the earth." Yet I also acknowledge that it has created great atrocities. I don't discount the other nations, it's just that this one has played a special part in biblical history in that it housed many Jews, and was instrumental in establishing that nation. This nation was used for the fulfillment of prophecy. Would that not anger the enemy of Israel?

Our nation began it's fall into "chaos" in that time frame. But - that's all just my opinion.

[herald2]

I am open to consider that "when" it transpired may yet need to be more clearly defined. I find it interesting that the rise of the beast from the sea in Rev 13 straightway mentions the deadly wound to it head, which to me was the provoking of Japan to war and the attack on Pearl harbor whereby thousands were needlessly killed/sacrificed for the war agenda.

However, what separates one nation from anther is often the place it places in the sovereignty God allowing it to exist according to His wisdom and purposes. Not all nations can be the 8th beast headed for destruction, not all nations are mentioned in scriptures, and not all have had such a close affiliation with Israel only to turn on her in these last days.

Still, given the gravity of the subject, I appreciate your submittal and hope others will continue to present their perspectives.

Thanks for the reply.

This is probably going to be somewhat of a different post than what you're used to, and I apologize for that. I'm going to be thinking out loud here.

For a long time I've wondered about the moving and changing of nations. Clearly the Lord does this, and to His purpose.

Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Act 17:26

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

I have always read the bolded part to mean that God places men in specific times, in specific nations where they will have the best chance of finding Him. It makes sense to me that God would similarly place men in nations to a specific end, for His purpose.

We have seen nations that were based on a democratic rule, or a ruling family, break down in communication and exchange of ideas and authority goes out the door - then anarchy results. Dictators rise from anarchy.

Could not the "seat" be established at this point? Or the power given at a time when the people are so distracted?

It is my belief that this nation was created for a time unlike any other. It rose against the tide, despite the odds, and survived to house some great orators of the faith. America sent out thousands to be "witnesses to the uttermost parts of the earth." Yet I also acknowledge that it has created great atrocities. I don't discount the other nations, it's just that this one has played a special part in biblical history in that it housed many Jews, and was instrumental in establishing that nation. This nation was used for the fulfillment of prophecy. Would that not anger the enemy of Israel?

Our nation began it's fall into "chaos" in that time frame. But - that's all just my opinion.