Is America the Great Babylon?

[BlindSeeker]

And who said the beast had to be an imperialist nation anyway?

First of all, you have been trying to make the case for the United States' global supremacy. That is the heart of imperialism. That is the goal of imperialism, which is why the US does not fit the description you are trying to force on her. Being a superpower is not equivalent to having "global supremacy."

I was referring to "imperialist nation" as an autocracy form of government, a monarchy, you know . . . kings and such?

But thank you for the opportunity to clarify myself.

[BlindSeeker]

lekh l'kha, I will endeavor to respond to your post as soon as possible. Sorry for the delay.

[Fraught]

What we hear of our society in the USA sounds bad, and our government is not going in the diredtion it should, but there are a lot of good people here, and in our travels through many states in the last year, we net a lot of Christians and other really good people. I'm not sure our country is all that bad as a whole.

I think we'd pass the Sodom and Gomorrah test of a few good people left....... and we might even get our government turned around in November......... who knows. Lets not throw the whole country under the bus just yet.

China owns your house. A man told me once "Yeah, I'd like to see them try and get it." . He doesn't have a clue that the truth of the matter is that the Chinese government doesn't care about his house. They'll drive a tank thru it with him and his wife kids inside. How's he gonna defend himself and his property?

We are never coming out of debt, and God has ceased his blessings and turned us into slaves and a people that are hated among the nations. It only gets worse from here.

you've got a point there, what good is a title deed or a gun when the government can just say here you go, China, have the state of 'ohio' (just an example). years ago, i stopped buying things made in china and urged others to do the same; now it is too late. however, even if something this extreme came to pass, it would not necessarily be a judgment from God. this kind of thing happens in cycles. empires do not retain their ascendancy forever. for many years now, the ascendancy of asia has been expected. this will happen for many reasons including demographics and natural resources (and maybe to fulfill biblical prophecy?) but not necessarily because of a judgment from God.

[lekh l'kha]

lekh l'kha, I will endeavor to respond to your post as soon as possible. Sorry for the delay.

No prob, I understand that like me, you have "x" amount of time, and no more

[Bold Believer]

What Jerusalem did import ...

11 "And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more

Is. 40, Jeremiah 50 and 51 all use the exact same language as Rev 18 and each of those chapters is a rebuke on the leaders (shepherds of Israel).

There is no doubt in my mind that Jerusalem is the Great Whore Babylon because it is the headquarters of the religious and political whore-system that was the leadership of Israel.

9 "And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city ! For in one hour your judgment has come.'

Really? The kings of the earth mourned at the fall of Jerusalem? That's news to me.

17 ...And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance, 18 and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning,

Since when could Jerusalem be seen from the sea?

Jerusalem apparently bought a LOT of luxury stuff. The Jewish leadership (the High Priests, the Sanhedrin, etc) appear to have lived in the lap of luxury off the backs of the people. Even the very Temple was used to sell, prompting Jesus to throw the lot responsible out. Jerusalem was certainly a great city and the Kings of the earth would have been sad about the loss.

Could the burning city have been seen from the sea? Apparently, since the Holy Spirit prompted John to write those words.

[nebula]

Does history record an economic calamity as a result of the loss of Jerusalem?

[Bold Believer]

Does history record an economic calamity as a result of the loss of Jerusalem?

The Scripture certainly did.

Rome began to decline after the fall of Jerusalem and broke into 10 kingdoms, kingdoms which eventually became Christian nations. When an empire falls, I'd say that's an economic calamity, whether or not history records it as such.

[nebula]

Does history record an economic calamity as a result of the loss of Jerusalem?

The Scripture certainly did.

Rome began to decline after the fall of Jerusalem and broke into 10 kingdoms, kingdoms which eventually became Christian nations. When an empire falls, I'd say that's an economic calamity, whether or not history records it as such.

Where does it state in Scripture that Rome began to decline after the fall of Jerusalem?

[lekh l'kha]

Does history record an economic calamity as a result of the loss of Jerusalem?

The Scripture certainly did.

Rome began to decline after the fall of Jerusalem and broke into 10 kingdoms, kingdoms which eventually became Christian nations. When an empire falls, I'd say that's an economic calamity, whether or not history records it as such.

Where does it state in Scripture that Rome began to decline after the fall of Jerusalem?

I think BB is talking about history, Neb. But the Roman Empire, though it might have broken up into 10 kingdoms after the fall of Jerusalem, was not defeated and did not "go into perdition". It continued to exist and in the 4th century, broke up into the Eastern Roman Empire and the Western Roman Empire after emperor Constantine moved the capital to Byzantium, renaming it Constantinople (present day Istanbul in Turkey). The Eastern Roman Empire is called "the Byzantine Empire" only because that's what history now calls it, but by its contemporaries the Byzantine Empire was not known as such - it was known simply as the Eastern Roman Empire.

Bold Believer,

The thing (about the destruction of "Babylon the great") is that Rev.17:16 says it's the 10 kings that destroy her. So if the 10 kingdoms only came into being in the Roman Empire after the destruction of Jerusalem, then Jerusalem could not have been Babylon the Great, and you will now have to develop an ad-hoc theory to explain the problem in your theory, which is what science often does when scientists discover a fact which negates an original theory. There are so many ad-hoc theories to explain away the facts which negate macro-evolution that it's unbelievable, no pun intended

[nebula]

I think BB is talking about history, Neb.

Well, he said Scripture, so....

But the Roman Empire, though it might have broken up into 10 kingdoms after the fall of Jerusalem, was not defeated and did not "go into perdition". . . .

The thing (about the destruction of "Babylon the great") is that Rev.17:16 says it's the 10 kings that destroy her. . . .

Good points!