Sabbath

[Joshua-777]

thanks for the clarification. i guess i thought you meant any day because you said you try to observe it on friday night but sometimes you have to work, but you always have saturday off. that's what was unclear to me.

i do believe that it is Holy to God, because the sabbath (on earth) is a shadow of Heaven itself (i forget where exactly that is, but the bible does refer to it as a shadow). but i also believe the entire bible to be the inspired word of God, and His word states that gentiles were not ever expected to keep the sabbath. i provided some of the scripture for that. there is, however, more scripture about that than i posted. it was something that was brought up time and time again when paul was instructing the gentile believers. so why wouldn't we gentiles be expected to keep the day Holy? well, i can only surmise that it is because God wants us to keep the spirit of the law, which observes Christ Himself as Holy, not a particular day. i really don't know, that's just my best guess. a good guess, but still just a guess.

in any case, i'm not really concerned about it. i do have days of "rest" from work... more often than not, really, since i only work part time and i do dedicate a significant portion of every day in prayer/worship/study... and i'm not just giving lip service to that, either. i pray throughout the day, every day. and on most sundays, i attend church where i fellowship/study/worship/pray with others. so while people like me, and fez, and some of the others who have contributed to this thread may not set aside a time from sundown on friday til sundown on saturday to spend the entire 24 hours focused only on God (and that seems like it would be rather difficult for anyone to do, shutting the rest of the world out for 24 hours a week), but in spirit, we are keeping the sabbath just as much.

actually, i shouldn't say "we", because i really shouldn't speak for fez and others. i'm not living their life so i really don't know. but i do know that as for myself, i keep the spirit of the sabbath, even if i don't observe "THE" sabbath. and i have no convictions to the contrary. i do believe though, that if you were to cease observing the sabbath as you do, that YOU would be convicted about it. so to cease observing it as you do would be sinful on your part. but it's just as important for me to understand that, as it is that you (and others) understand that those of us who are not convicted about not observing it are also not sinning.

Hi, Thanks for your reply, and I'll try to address the verses you have been posting.

The verse about a shadow of things to come.

Colossians 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Now this verse says that these are a shadow of things "to come" not things that have come, The substance is of Christ. The sabbath gives us a picture of when we are at rest with Him. 6 days of creation, and the 7th day rest. 6000 years of sin, and 1000 years of our Messiahs reign.

Verse 20 is against the doctrines of man, and the regulations that man set.

Colossians 2:20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?

Now with Romans 14 concerning observing days. I have found a good argument on both sides, but I really do not think that that was regarding the sabbath for many reasons. I believe it was about observing fasting days, because the whole context is about food, so like most of Paul's letters they "days" should also be in the context of food. Also given that the letter to the Romans was written to the Jews, and not the gentiles, there would have been a huge issue with the Sabbath day. Also with Gentiles meeting in the synagog with the Jews, without any understanding of the laws given to the jews you can see how this would be an issue. If it where referring to Sabbath day, there would be a whole chapter as to why, rather than one verse in the context of food and drink, that does not even say the say Sabbath.

As I said earlier though live by the Spirit, and eagerly follow Him. Our Salvation only comes from Jesus, and we are only righteous by His righteousness, and we are only saved by His blood.

[Joshua-777]

My perception of the Sabbath, I put aside the whole entire day for the Lord, I try not to do any work. I observe it to our Messiah, that makes me no better, and not more righteous I do not try to keep the Sabbath Holy in legalism, but I honor it unto the Lord. It's His day He made sacred before we fell in sin and before the law, And by sabbath I mean the 7th day of the week so it does have to do with a specific day, the day God rested from His works. Not just any day. The reason why is because it is the First thing in the bible God blessed and sanctified, and also holds deeper meaning. We should honor every day unto the Lord, and we should always be in prayer, praise, and worship. The 7th day though I believe is Holy.

God said it was Holy, He sanctified the seventh day, The question we have to ask is is that day still Holy to God? And if not, what scriptural evidence is there that it is no longer holy?

The question would be, are you really keeping the Sabbath? because keeping the Sabbath, according to OT dictates is literally impossible today. Actually keeping the Sabbath according to OT laws given by God Himself involves a component that is impossible to do.

As you said, it is impossible to keep the sabbath according to the OT laws given. But still regard it as a Holy day and observe it in the freedom and liberty in Christ, yes.

Now why is the Sabbath the first thing God sanctified, even before the OT laws where given. Genesis 2:3, and why would it make reference to us celebrating Sabbath in the millennial kingdom. Isaiah 66:22-24 if the sabbath wasn't still a Holy day? If the sabbath day is holy to God, why shouldn't it be holy to us?

[UncleAbee]

Joshua777 wrote - Now I'll ask this question again,. Is that day still Holy to God? And if not, what scriptural evidence is there that it is no longer holy?

The day is still holy to God as far as I can tell. It's not binding on Christians because there is no NT authority that does so. The NT gives us all of our spiritual practices. I agree with you that if you want to observe the Sabbath then go for it. It's not something you can bind others as a spiritual practice but your freedom in Christ allows you to observe it.

[other one]

Now I'll ask this question again,.

Is that day still Holy to God? And if not, what scriptural evidence is there that it is no longer holy?

Josh, I'm really reluctant to get too into details for I am always concerned with affecting someone's faith. I do think I need to answer your question here so I'll try.

Genesis tells us that God (actually Jesus from the Father) worked for six days creating the universe, our solar system, and earth and everything on it. And the Seventh day he rested. Take note that it says that he rested on that singular seventh day. I don't read anywhere in the Bible that he has rested any other day since then.

John 5:16-17

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working ."

NKJV

Keep in mind that this answer to the Jews is in context of them accusing him of working on the Sabbath. His answer was not to correct them of thier accusation, but to actually confirm that not only he (Jesus) but th Father Himself had been working. I don't see any way out of seeing that Jesus told the Jews that both have been working on Sabbaths.

I also don't see any scripture nor in the other non canon books I've read that shows where anyone kept the sabbath laws given to Moses for the Israelites to follow. And even then, it was not Saturday that was holy, but done so in rememberance of the day that God rested.

Saturday isn't anything special, and neither wea it to the Jews of Moses's day. It was the ritual that they had to carry out that was important, and it was to remember one single day in history when God sat back and rested.

I see no reason to separate the Sabbath rememberance from the other nine commandments as being any different.

Jesus told us that if we loved God with all our heart mind and soul and loved our neighbors as ourselves that we would be fullfilling the requirements of the law.

I love the Father with all my heart, mind and soul..... I love Jesus the same and the Spirit that the Father has sent to me the same. I love my neighbors and wish them nothing but goodness, even our muslim brothers and sisters that I am quite frankly very leary of....... but I with them nothing short of salvation and eternal lives in heaven.

Jesus didn't tell me that I should take a day off every week and rest......... he told me to leave what I was behind and come follow him........ every minute of every day of every week of every year of the rest of my life.

He doesn't want me to do physical rituals, or go places, or stay home or anything of that nature. He wants my gratitude and worship in a spiritual sense, and that not a single day of the week, but a total way of life. Though we do attend church, it's not really even necessary to do so and still be his. I go because there are good people there and we share our worship and our needs and our hopes and our knowledge of the word and how the Spirit interfaces with each of those who attend there.

I fail to see that if it was important that we take a day off each week that Jesus would not have told us to do so when he was giving us the new commandments of loving God and our neighbors. Sometimes what is not there is just as important as what is.

I hear people talk about how uplifting it is to give up a day to the Lord, and I have trouble expressing how uplifting it is to give up a life instead. Every time I try it comes out sounding like I'm some kind of a better person than others, and so most of the time I just keep it to myself.

but I gotta tell you Josh, until one reaches the point in spiritual growth that nothing of this world matters on the physical scale including rutual worship, they don't understand what Gods Sabbath rest is.

Heb 7:11-17

Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 17 For He testifies:

"You are a priest forever

According to the order of Melchizedek."

NKJV

Edited October 19, 2010 by other one

[BlindSeeker]

Heb 4:1 Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it.

2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4 For He has thus said somewhere concerning the seventh [day,] "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";

5 and again in this [passage,] "THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST."

6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

7 He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.

9 There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

This subject matter of Hebrews is set forth and evident from the very beginning of Hebrews -

Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection

the world to come, whereof we speak

.

Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of

the world to come.

It is also clear from the author of Hebrews that the "rest" of which the Sabbath is a shadow of has not yet come, for by scripture we can see that it fulfilled in "the world to come," therefore we are instructed two fold - Let us therefore fear . . . Let us labor therefore . . .

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Eph 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Yet today every one just wants to be let alone to rest and do what so ever they feel is right . . .

How is it the church today has forgotten to fear, or for that matter even teach against fearing God. I had one lady who actually told me she was delivered from the fear of God, can you imagine that? Is it that they think they have perfected their love for God already and have no need of fear, or to be working out their salvation? Is it because they feel all they need to do is "believe" and that they don't really need to pray that they may be found worthy?

Yet we are told by Jesus very clearly -

Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Since we are still awaiting the inheritance of the saints to be fulfilled in "the world to come . . . "

Heb 4:9 (KJV) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Heb 4:9 (NASB) There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Heb 4:9 (NIV) There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;

Heb 4:9 (NRSV) So then, a sabbath rest still remains for the people of God;

Heb 4:9 (RSV) So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God;

Heb 4:9 (ASV) There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.

Heb 4:9 (NAS95) So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Heb 4:9 (BBE)

So that there is still a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God.

Heb 4:9 (WEB) There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Heb 4:9 (DBY) There remains then a sabbatism to the people of God.

Heb 4:9 (YLT) there doth remain, then, a sabbatic rest to the people of God,

Heb 4:9 (NKJV) There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.

Heb 4:9 (MKJV) So then there remains a rest to the people of God.

Heb 4:9 (MNT) So there remains a Sabbath Rest for the people of God.

Heb 4:9 (Oracl) There remains, therefore, a divine rest for the people of God.

Heb 4:9 (TCNT) There is, then, a Sabbath-Rest still awaiting God's People.

Heb 4:9 (WNT) It follows that there still remains a sabbath rest for the people of God.

Keeping the Sabbath is a prophetic exercise and responsibility of the saints, that they believe in the promise of God. It is meant to be a perpetual sign of their covenant relationship with God . . . not unlike an engagement ring.

[other one]

Heb 4:1-5:1

Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

"So I swore in My wrath,'They shall not enter My rest,'"

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works"; 5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice,Do not harden your hearts."

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

14 Our Compassionate High Priest

Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

NKJV

You can enter that rest today.

[Joshua-777]

I fail to see that if it was important that we take a day off each week that Jesus would not have told us to do so when he was giving us the new commandments of loving God and our neighbors. Sometimes what is not there is just as important as what is.

I hear people talk about how uplifting it is to give up a day to the Lord, and I have trouble expressing how uplifting it is to give up a life instead. Every time I try it comes out sounding like I'm some kind of a better person than others, and so most of the time I just keep it to myself.

but I gotta tell you Josh, until one reaches the point in spiritual growth that nothing of this world matters on the physical scale including rutual worship, they don't understand what Gods Sabbath rest is.

Thanks for your reply, and I agree on some things you have said. I also agree how uplifting it is giving up a life to God. As far as the Sabbath day being Sanctified by God, I believe it still is, and love is the fulfillment of the law so if it is observed, it can only be observed in love. That does not mean that love is lawless, but love fulfills. I think the Sabbath is practice for when we are united with Him.

[Joshua-777]

As you said, it is impossible to keep the sabbath according to the OT laws given. But still regard it as a Holy day and observe it in the freedom and liberty in Christ, yes.

Now why is the Sabbath the first thing God sanctified, even before the OT laws where given. Genesis 2:3, and why would it make reference to us celebrating Sabbath in the millennial kingdom. Isaiah 66:22-24 if the sabbath wasn't still a Holy day? If the sabbath day is holy to God, why shouldn't it be holy to us?

Because the main purpose of the Millennial Kingdom is to fulfill God's promises to Israel. The focus returns to them and them finally recieving their full blessings as God's chosen people. The Sabbath was never commanded for anyone to observe except the Jews, and I know this issue is debated endlessly on every Christian forum there is, but God answered the question Himself when He allowed the Temple to be destroyed in 70 AD. You cannot have the Sabbath at all without a Temple in Jerusalem, a Levitical priesthood, and morning and evening Sabbath sacrifices in addition to the regular morning and evening sacrifices. Christ has given us freedom from being chained to days, so I always find it ironic when people say they observe it through freedom and liberty in Christ. If one has freedom and liberty in Christ, then there is no reason to observe the Sabbath. The Sabbath has to be observed, to the letter if one is going to attach themselves to the Law. And then one has to observe every single facet of the law, not just the Sabbath. If the Sabbath has the signifigance which you place upon it, then it must be kept according to OT dictates, not just however one now feels like keeping it.

But the Sabbath was before the temple was made, and before the law was given to observe it. It was blessed before man fell into sin, before the Jews, and it is mentioned in the Millennial kingdom also. So when did it no longer become blessed?

Genesis 2:3

3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

[other one]

As you said, it is impossible to keep the sabbath according to the OT laws given. But still regard it as a Holy day and observe it in the freedom and liberty in Christ, yes.

Now why is the Sabbath the first thing God sanctified, even before the OT laws where given. Genesis 2:3, and why would it make reference to us celebrating Sabbath in the millennial kingdom. Isaiah 66:22-24 if the sabbath wasn't still a Holy day? If the sabbath day is holy to God, why shouldn't it be holy to us?

Because the main purpose of the Millennial Kingdom is to fulfill God's promises to Israel. The focus returns to them and them finally recieving their full blessings as God's chosen people. The Sabbath was never commanded for anyone to observe except the Jews, and I know this issue is debated endlessly on every Christian forum there is, but God answered the question Himself when He allowed the Temple to be destroyed in 70 AD. You cannot have the Sabbath at all without a Temple in Jerusalem, a Levitical priesthood, and morning and evening Sabbath sacrifices in addition to the regular morning and evening sacrifices. Christ has given us freedom from being chained to days, so I always find it ironic when people say they observe it through freedom and liberty in Christ. If one has freedom and liberty in Christ, then there is no reason to observe the Sabbath. The Sabbath has to be observed, to the letter if one is going to attach themselves to the Law. And then one has to observe every single facet of the law, not just the Sabbath. If the Sabbath has the signifigance which you place upon it, then it must be kept according to OT dictates, not just however one now feels like keeping it.

But the Sabbath was before the temple was made, and before the law was given to observe it. It was blessed before man fell into sin, before the Jews, and it is mentioned in the Millennial kingdom also. So when did it no longer become blessed?

Genesis 2:3

3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

I'm struggling here Josh. I can't remember anyone keeping a sabbath until the Israelites left Egypt.

Who observed the sabbath before it was given to the Jews concerning the mana and then three monts later with the ten commandments?

[Guest LadyC]

i know i shouldn't ask this, because it is going to seem random. but there's really a point to my question. a valid reason. unfortunately i'm about to leave for work in a little bit, so it will take a while for me to return to respond to your answer. i suspect, though, that several others here will understand what prompts my question, and if need be, be able to explain it's relevance to you. and it actually is a relevant question, and is not intended to drag the conversation off topic. and really, it shouldn't drag it off topic, if it's kept in context with the current discussion.

josh, where do you stand on circumcision? i don't mean just as a preference and something that is commonplace, i mean what are your convictions on that issue as it relates to faith?