Sabbath

[BlindSeeker]

Heb 4:1-5:1

Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

"So I swore in My wrath,'They shall not enter My rest,'"

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works"; 5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice,Do not harden your hearts."

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

14 Our Compassionate High Priest

Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

NKJV

You can enter that rest today.

Yes, you can enter into a rest today . . . but that is not the focus or subject matter of Hebrews 4 . . . otherwise there would be no warning affixed to it.

[other one]

Heb 4:1-5:1

Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

"So I swore in My wrath,'They shall not enter My rest,'"

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works"; 5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice,Do not harden your hearts."

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

14 Our Compassionate High Priest

Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

NKJV

You can enter that rest today.

Yes, you can enter into a rest today . . . but that is not the focus or subject matter of Hebrews 4 . . . otherwise there would be no warning affixed to it.

I really don't understand how you can say that.

[BlindSeeker]

You can enter that rest today.

Yes, you can enter into a rest today . . . but that is not the focus or subject matter of Hebrews 4 . . . otherwise there would be no warning affixed to it.

I really don't understand how you can say that.

I know. Because you are merging two distinct "rests."

You are failing to recognize it is speaking to something afar off, yet something of which we can still presently have a foretaste of.

Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The rest we enjoy now is the fruit of our faith and trust in God that He will indeed be true to His word and will therefore later give us our inheritance . . . where we will ever be at rest, free evermore from the wicked, temptation and sin.

Psm 37:7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.

8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.

9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

[BlindSeeker]

Since it has gone conveniently ignored, I will resubmit my earlier post. After all, it is a legitimate question regarding the subject matter of the OP.

For all who believe God has cast away the Sabbath, how do you explain this verse?

Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws,

changed the

ordinance

<choq>

, broken the everlasting covenant.

<choq> -

an appointment (of

time

, space, quantity,

labor

or usage):--appointed, bound, commandment, convenient, custom, decree(-d), due, law, measure, X necessary, ordinance(- nary), portion,

set time

, statute, task.

There is only one "ordinance" given by the finger of God written in stone . . . a commandment to remember a day set apart (sanctified) from creation as hallow.

In what other way was it changed . . . if not from the seventh day to the 1st or whatever day you feel like?

[Joshua-777]

As you said, it is impossible to keep the sabbath according to the OT laws given. But still regard it as a Holy day and observe it in the freedom and liberty in Christ, yes.

Now why is the Sabbath the first thing God sanctified, even before the OT laws where given. Genesis 2:3, and why would it make reference to us celebrating Sabbath in the millennial kingdom. Isaiah 66:22-24 if the sabbath wasn't still a Holy day? If the sabbath day is holy to God, why shouldn't it be holy to us?

Because the main purpose of the Millennial Kingdom is to fulfill God's promises to Israel. The focus returns to them and them finally recieving their full blessings as God's chosen people. The Sabbath was never commanded for anyone to observe except the Jews, and I know this issue is debated endlessly on every Christian forum there is, but God answered the question Himself when He allowed the Temple to be destroyed in 70 AD. You cannot have the Sabbath at all without a Temple in Jerusalem, a Levitical priesthood, and morning and evening Sabbath sacrifices in addition to the regular morning and evening sacrifices. Christ has given us freedom from being chained to days, so I always find it ironic when people say they observe it through freedom and liberty in Christ. If one has freedom and liberty in Christ, then there is no reason to observe the Sabbath. The Sabbath has to be observed, to the letter if one is going to attach themselves to the Law. And then one has to observe every single facet of the law, not just the Sabbath. If the Sabbath has the signifigance which you place upon it, then it must be kept according to OT dictates, not just however one now feels like keeping it.

But the Sabbath was before the temple was made, and before the law was given to observe it. It was blessed before man fell into sin, before the Jews, and it is mentioned in the Millennial kingdom also. So when did it no longer become blessed?

Genesis 2:3

3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

I'm struggling here Josh. I can't remember anyone keeping a sabbath until the Israelites left Egypt.

Who observed the sabbath before it was given to the Jews concerning the mana and then three monts later with the ten commandments?

There is no record of anyone keeping the sabbath before it was given to the Jews, but there is record that there is knowledge of sin, and there are customs found in the law, like sacrifices, marriage, ect. Also there is record When the Lord blessed the sabbath. Before it was given to the Jews it is very possible that it was so common practice that there wasn't reason to write of it. It gives record that God blessed that day and sanctified, then when the law was given to the Jews it reflects on the day that God rested and keep it Holy. I also don't get how 9 commandments are clear as to what sin is, and to show what sin is even still today, yet the 4th commandment isn't?

[Joshua-777]

But the Sabbath was before the temple was made, and before the law was given to observe it. It was blessed before man fell into sin, before the Jews, and it is mentioned in the Millennial kingdom also. So when did it no longer become blessed?

Genesis 2:3

3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

The Sabbath was not given to anyone either as a prototype or as command until Mt. Sinai. You cannot use Genesis 2:3 as anything other than a type of the Sabbath to come, as it only applies to God Himself and no one else.

Genesis 2:2-3 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Where is the command from God for anyone to observe the Sabbath in those verses? Unless you can display a command pre-Mosaic Law, or someone in the OT before Mt. Sinai observing the Sabbath, you are applying a meaning, and an observance on those verses that isn't there. You are arguing a position from biblical silence.

We have no record of anyone before the Exodus observing the Sabbath. No Adam & Eve, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, or an entire Israelite population during their bondage in Egypt. No mention anywhere, until Exodus 16 that anyone observed the Sabbath at all, and it was most certainly not commanded by God that anyone do so until that time. Scripture is abundantly clear on this subject, and quite frankly, I always wonder why SDA's and others constantly try to use Genesis 2:3 as some form of God instituting the Sabbath when it does nothing of the kind. In fact, you have scripture which clearly states that the Sabbath, as part of the Law, was not given to anyone or commanded by God for anyone to observe until Mosaic Law was established:

Deuteronomy 5:1-4 Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain.

And who was the Sabbath commandment given to?

Exodus 31:13-17 13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. 14 "'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.'"

Now the Lord Himself draws a parallel to His statement in Genesis 2 but we have no command from Him to observe the Sabbath as a law until this point, and it is only given to Israel, no one else. So the only people who should be observing the Sabbath are Mosaic Jews who do not believe in the Messiah. And even then, they cannot actually observe the Sabbath because there is no Temple. Galatians 3:10 says that anyone trying to still live under the Law is under a curse, so why do people constantly try and mix old covenant with new covenant? It can't be done. Anyone who is in Christ by salvation has no part in the old covenant.

First for the record, I am not a SDA, and I do not agree with them.

Genesis 2:3

3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

There is no record of anyone observing the sabbath before Exodus, but that also does not mean they didn't. There are obvious things they did observe that where part of the Law, Marriages, Sacrifices, offerings, sin. It is very possible that it was so common practice that it wasn't mentioned.

Anyone who is in Christ by salvation has no part in the old covenant.

So if we don't make graven images of our God to worship, are we partaking in the old covenant? That was also a command given to the Jews, that wasn't mentioned in the New testament.

Now the Sabbath is a sign Forever, how long is forever?

Exodus 31:13-17

[Joshua-777]

Since it has gone conveniently ignored, I will resubmit my earlier post. After all, it is a legitimate question regarding the subject matter of the OP.

For all who believe God has cast away the Sabbath, how do you explain this verse?

Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws,

changed the

ordinance

<choq>

, broken the everlasting covenant.

<choq> -

an appointment (of

time

, space, quantity,

labor

or usage):--appointed, bound, commandment, convenient, custom, decree(-d), due, law, measure, X necessary, ordinance(- nary), portion,

set time

, statute, task.

There is only one "ordinance" given by the finger of God written in stone . . . a commandment to remember a day set apart (sanctified) from creation as hallow.

In what other way was it changed . . . if not from the seventh day to the 1st or whatever day you feel like?

Your going to try and apply an OT verse given to a specific group and race of people for a specific purpose to NT Christians? That verse in Isaiah does not apply to anyone but the people that Isaiah was prophecying to then. Show me where God instituted the Sabbath before Mt. Sinai. Show me where God commanded anyone besides the Israelites to keep the Sabbath. Show me where Jesus tells us to obey the Sabbath law. Show me how the Sabbath can still be kept without a Temple. Until you can show biblical proof of all those things, keeping the Sabbath is a moot point.

Actually Isaiah 24 is about when our Messiah returns, which has to do with us also. Every Christian should be waiting for His return, how does it not reflect new testament Christians also everyone on the whole earth?

Isaiah 24:21 It shall come to pass in that day

That the LORD will punish on high the host of exalted ones,

And on the earth the kings of the earth.

22 They will be gathered together,

As prisoners are gathered in the pit,

And will be shut up in the prison;

After many days they will be punished.

23 Then the moon will be disgraced

And the sun ashamed;

For the LORD of hosts will reign

On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem

And before His elders, gloriously

Show me where God commanded anyone besides the Israelites to keep the Sabbath

Isaiah 66:22 “ For as the new heavens and the new earth

Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the LORD,

“ So shall your descendants and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass

That from one New Moon to another,

And from one Sabbath to another,

All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the LORD.

24 “ And they shall go forth and look

Upon the corpses of the men

Who have transgressed against Me.

For their worm does not die,

And their fire is not quenched.

They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

[Joshua-777]

i know i shouldn't ask this, because it is going to seem random. but there's really a point to my question. a valid reason. unfortunately i'm about to leave for work in a little bit, so it will take a while for me to return to respond to your answer. i suspect, though, that several others here will understand what prompts my question, and if need be, be able to explain it's relevance to you. and it actually is a relevant question, and is not intended to drag the conversation off topic. and really, it shouldn't drag it off topic, if it's kept in context with the current discussion.

josh, where do you stand on circumcision? i don't mean just as a preference and something that is commonplace, i mean what are your convictions on that issue as it relates to faith?

Where do I stand on circumcision. I believe that it was something symbolic of being born again. The circumcised of the heart. Though I have read things on how it lowers the chance of infections, we are not saved through circumcision. We are the circumcision by faith and not by our flesh. We are all saved by faith and not of works. Now circumcision is a majority separate issue.

Romans 3:29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

We are not justified by the law, and in seeking to be justified by the law we will fall from grace. Physical Circumcision has no value, and if we seek to be made right by becoming circumcised, Christ will profit us nothing. Did circumcision then just disappear and no longer has meaning, No because We must circumcise the foreskins of our hearts by cutting off the flesh, and living in the Spirit.

Jeremiah 4:4

4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD,

And take away the foreskins of your hearts,

You men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem,

Lest My fury come forth like fire,

And burn so that no one can quench it,

Because of the evil of your doings.”

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

I also believe love is the fulfillment of the law.

My main point for holding onto the sabbath is not so much about the law, or legalism, but it's that if God conceders the 7th day blessed, and He sanctified it. "Made it sacred" Why shouldn't we treat it as sacred and blessed? The smallest mention of the word sabbath automatically goes to legalism and burden, but I believe that God does not bless something and make it holy to be used as a burden. The sabbath was made for man, as a joyful thing. Not man for the sabbath.

[Guest LadyC]

but circumcision, like the sabbath, was part of the original, pre-resurrection covenant with the israelites, God's chosen people. it may not have been part of the 10, but it was still a command under penalty of death. exactly like keeping the sabbath.

and the sabbath, like circumcision, is NOT part of the new covenant under the blood of Christ with the gentile nations, and that the NT makes it clear not just once, not just twice, not even just three times, but over and over again that those things are not required for those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. (even if they are jewish.)

repeatedly in the NT, gentile believers are told they are NOT required to keep the sabbath. so if you want to keep a day separate just for you to spend in communion with God, that's a very good thing. it's your personal conviction. and while it may be loosely based on your understanding of the sabbath (because you observe it on the seventh day), you are not actually keeping the sabbath holy according to scripture... which is also probably good since you wouldn't be capable of doing so. just because we are now free in Christ from the law doesn't mean you can take a concept of the law and make it into anything you want to and still call it "sabbath-keeping". what if each of us did that and then tried to convince everyone else that it was the right thing to do? what utter mayhem! that's the difference between faith, a relationship with Christ, and man-made religious doctrine.

My main point for holding onto the sabbath is not so much about the law, or legalism, but it's that if God conceders the 7th day blessed, and He sanctified it. "Made it sacred" Why shouldn't we treat it as sacred and blessed?

and what makes you think anybody here treats it as if it were not sacred and blessed? do we have to behave exactly as you do in order for it to be sacred or blessed to us?

look, it's awesome that you dedicate a day of the week to the Lord. but to make it part of your doctrine that you try to convince others of is totally unbiblical. it's also based entirely on your speculation of what might have occurred prior to mt. sinai, even though there is not a shred of biblical evidence to support your assumptions.

[Guest man]

We are not justified by the law, and in seeking to be justified by the law we will fall from grace. Physical Circumcision has no value, and if we seek to be made right by becoming circumcised, Christ will profit us nothing. Did circumcision then just disappear and no longer has meaning, No because We must circumcise the foreskins of our hearts by cutting off the flesh, and living in the Spirit.

Couldn't the same thing be said about keeping the Sabbath?