Justin Martyr AD151- re sunday fellowship

[JCISGD]

First lets get something straight, it is not the Jewish Sabbath, God says differently they are Gods days given to us not to Judah or the Judeans which is where the term Jew came from. There are 24 hours in a day the Jews at least all the ones I know laugh when they hear that one assigned to them. The days start and end with the sun rising and setting not to hard to see that is it? Heres a good read about the Lords Day and why it is always refered to as the day He returns, the Day of Wrath, we always see John in the Spirit when talking about the Day of the Lord. Link

In Revelation 1:10 John uses what was then apparently a unique (dative) expression. However, John

[Joshua-777]

Now the Sabbath God made pretty clear that that was His day, and that it was a sign between the children of Israel forever.

Genesis 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Exodus 31:17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.

[JCISGD]

Now the Sabbath God made pretty clear that that was His day, and that it was a sign between the children of Israel forever.

Genesis 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Exodus 31:17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’”

Also It is going to be in the millennial kingdom

Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass

That from one New Moon to another,

And from one Sabbath to another,

All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the LORD.

Well, God made it pretty clear that the 7th day, "Saturday" was His day. Now it's not that clear in the new testament about sunday. Yes they broke bread, but Paul was also leaving at that time, and Yes they collected tithes but that was also so there wouldn't be any collecting when Paul arrived in Corinth. There is no clear scriptures saying that sunday is the Lords day, and there is no clear scriptures saying that it took the place of the sabbath. Now God was pretty clear on the Sabbath being His day, why wouldn't He be as clear about sunday?

You are right to say it was given to Israel, but it was for a sign and it will not be needed forever. Our glorified bodies will not need rest.

God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, as a day to remember His work in creation, the same God later did a far greater and everlasting work of redemption.

The millenium will indeed celebrate a sabbath, and all flesh shall come together to worship the Lord, but that doesnt mean it will be on the seventh day.

The answer to your last question, is that the Holy Spirit had been given and would lead the church into all truth.

It is absolutley clear in the NT (Jn 20:19, Acts 20:7 and 1 Cor 16:2), that the church met on the first day and that this was known as the Lords Day, and this is confirmed by church history as well. I think you are asking for more proof than God has chosen to give. The clear verses rule over the unclear, and its unclear that they met in synagogues other than to witness or refute the Jews.

How could they meet and worship Jesus in the synagogues? it is accepted fact that they were heavily persecuted for even mentioning Jesus, they would have had no opportunity or peace to have intimate fellowship and worship of the Lord.

I think we are in stalemate, but its not my intention to stop you posting your opinions. on the contrary i welcome them.

God bless.

[Botz]

It was still IN the end of the Sabbath.

I hear what you are saying bro, and I went back and re-read your excellent post about the comings and goings to the Tomb and the timing of it all...I enjoyed it then and I enjoyed it again just now. It seems the particular thing we have a slight difference of opinion about at the moment is the word usage of Matthew 28:1 in which I see you insist on using the KJV, which is fine, but I did not find your explanation of the wording 'as it began to dawn' conclusive or completely convincing...there are two main reasons:-

1. From what I know of Jewish tradition/laws visiting a graveyard on the Shabbat is strictly forbidden, so it would seem much more likely and as far as I can see in accordance to Scripture, that the women had deliberately waited till the Shabbat had finished, and were no longer rstricted by either the length of their journey, or the object of their destination.

2. Most major translations do not emphasis the things written in quite the way you do (they may be wrong I guess) and David Stern in his translation of this verse in the Jewish New Testament writes 'After Shabbat towards dawn on Sunday...' in his commentary he concludes that the reference is definitely directed towards Sunday morning.

hi Botz, i hadnt considered other translations, thats a fair comment. I agree that they would not have violated the shabbat, and this is further proof that it was into the first day before they began their journey to the tomb. The word "dawn" is not a specific hour and depending on the season could be after the begining of the first hr, and seems to be so as the verse more clearly says it was "after" the sabbath. The clear rules over the unclear.

But the proof of anything is in all the facts, and the actual practice of the early church confirms that the first day is the Lords Day and the day they met as a church.

Seventh Day Aventists are dishonest in that they accuse Constantine of changing the day, but even those who were disciples of John met on the first day and did call it the Lords Day.(google "early church fathers) Constantine did make it a day of rest as a law within his duristriction, but that is not the same as being the originator of its observance.

I hope ive answered your questions, apologies if ive misunderstood what your position? Im certainly no authority or scholar.

Hello JCISGD, thanks for your input, but my slight contention in this case was directed at Blindseeker.

This thread is interesting, and has bifurcated into two separate arguments namely those that are trying to work out if the expression the 'L-rds Day' indicated Saturday or Sunday...something in which I have not got involved.

Then there is my argument/friendly discussion with Blindseeeker, who seems to insist that I am reading Scripture wrongly (it might be true, it has happened before, and I daresay will happen again) and that the expression in Matthew 28:1 where it says:-In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. still shows it was during the vestiges of the Shabbat that the two Mary's went off on their initial visit to the sepulchre of Joseph of Arimathea.

There are several events in the Bible that truly reward diligent searching because they help give a clearer picture when the chronology falls into place, like a jigsaw....one of them is the burying of Jesus, the process, and the various people involved in visiting the place where He was entombed. The other involves the ressurection appearances of Jesus, when and to whom, and the apparent conflictions within the fragmented snip-bits recorded.

I'm no scholar or authority either...

[anitarose]

I'm going to add a few things to this conversation, then I will bow respectfully out....

1) Constantine did change a few things around after his "conversion"....he was a pagan and a lot of his pagan practices came into church doctrine just after that, such as the Gregorian calendar, worshipping the "queen of heaven" and basically outlawing the Feasts.

2) Did not Y'shua say that "Heaven and earth will pass away, but MY WORDS will not pass away"...and I seem to remember Him saying that "whoever is ashamed of Me and MY WORDS, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory..." (Lk 9:26). There are other Scriptures where He talked about his WORDS. In the Hebrew, that word "WORD" is TORAH. Torah also means "teaching and instruction". Y'shua also cast out demons with "the finger of YHWH" (Lk 11:20); this is the same finger of YHWH that was used in Exodus 19 to write the 10 Commandments. Same.

3) The "New" Covenant is a fulfillment and a reflection of the "Old" Covenant...they are RENEWED Covenants, not "old" and "new". One didn't replace the other. We may not be required to do animal sacrifice any more, but we ARE required to keep His commandments, as He has said repeatedly in his Torah. Colossians 2:16, Paul asks that the new believers not allow anyone to "judge you in food or drink or regarding a festival or a New Moon or Sabbaths". Why would he say this if there weren't believers that were keeping the Sabbath? Like my pastor always says, "We don't have to---we GET TO"....there's a huge difference between having to keep Sabbath and actually getting to do it. This is just my opinion, but if you want to keep the 7th day as a Sabbath rest, by all means, do so...if you want to gather on the 1st day of the week (Sun-day), by all means. Let no one condemn the other for doing what they think is correct. I believe in keeping Torah, celebrating the Feasts, and keeping Sabbath. I also fast on Feast days, if fasting is required (Unleavened Bread, Yom Kippur, Purim). I don't condemn my brethren that I live with for going to church on Sun-days.

That's all I'm going to say on the subject....

a.

[Guest]

.... I do see the Sabbath as the seventh day all day from sunset to sunset thats how God set up the days....

God's Days God's Way

And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Genesis 1:5

Night To Light

And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. Genesis 1:8

Night To Light

And the evening and the morning were the third day. Genesis 1:13

Night To Light

And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Genesis 1:19

Night To Light

And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. Genesis 1:23

Night To Light

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:31

Night To Light

[Joshua-777]

You are right to say it was given to Israel, but it was for a sign and it will not be needed forever. Our glorified bodies will not need rest.

God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, as a day to remember His work in creation, the same God later did a far greater and everlasting work of redemption.

The millenium will indeed celebrate a sabbath, and all flesh shall come together to worship the Lord, but that doesnt mean it will be on the seventh day.

The answer to your last question, is that the Holy Spirit had been given and would lead the church into all truth.

It is absolutley clear in the NT (Jn 20:19, Acts 20:7 and 1 Cor 16:2), that the church met on the first day and that this was known as the Lords Day, and this is confirmed by church history as well. I think you are asking for more proof than God has chosen to give. The clear verses rule over the unclear, and its unclear that they met in synagogues other than to witness or refute the Jews.

How could they meet and worship Jesus in the synagogues? it is accepted fact that they were heavily persecuted for even mentioning Jesus, they would have had no opportunity or peace to have intimate fellowship and worship of the Lord.

I think we are in stalemate, but its not my intention to stop you posting your opinions. on the contrary i welcome them.

God bless.

Though rest wouldn't be needed forever, God said forever. Now how long is forever? Which that does to me anyways, explain why all flesh would celebrate it in the millennial kingdom.

One thing to consider, The Sabbath was blessed and sanctified before the need for a savior. God blessed it before the law, and before man fell into sin. It was ordered for the Israelites but it was sanctified long before them.

As far as the church meeting together on the first day, and this being called the first day. I also see evidence that they not only honored sabbath but also kept the feasts. Though there was some major issues with the Jews with this which is also clear. As far as having opportunity for peace and intimate fellowship and worship with the Lord, they worshiped the Lord every day.

Many use Colossians against the Sabbath, but I see it as proof for the Sabbath.

Colossians 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Now notice it says a shadow of things "to come" not a shadow of things that had come. Now with this, the context is not saying do not observe the festivals or sabbaths.

Verse 21 shows the context.

21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?

Where the sabbaths and the Lords days according to the commandments and doctrine of men? In My bible it says they where the Lords days. God gave the sabbath and festivals, not man. This verse shows that man made regulations shouldn't limit us on these days, and shows that they did observe them.

Further evidence for early Christians observing the Holy Days. Here we have the feast of unleavened bread and Passover. Paul was instructing Corinth to keep the feast. This further confirms to me the meaning of colossians.

1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Now my last point, backing up to colossians 2:16. What does it mean shadow of things to come? I believe that the sabbath is symbolic for 6 thousand years of sin, and 1 thousand year reign of our Messiah here on earth.

Peter gives a hit to this in 2 Peter, Saying a day to God is as a thousand years to man concerning His coming.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Now the sabbath rest, People refer to Hebrews 4 saying out work is done when we accept Jesus because we are no longer saved by works. But verse 11 shows that we have not entered that rest yet. This rest I believe is referring to the coming of our Messiah.

Hebrews 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

[mizzdy]

I'm going to add a few things to this conversation, then I will bow respectfully out....

1) Constantine did change a few things around after his "conversion"....he was a pagan and a lot of his pagan practices came into church doctrine just after that, such as the Gregorian calendar, worshipping the "queen of heaven" and basically outlawing the Feasts.

2) Did not Y'shua say that "Heaven and earth will pass away, but MY WORDS will not pass away"...and I seem to remember Him saying that "whoever is ashamed of Me and MY WORDS, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory..." (Lk 9:26). There are other Scriptures where He talked about his WORDS. In the Hebrew, that word "WORD" is TORAH. Torah also means "teaching and instruction". Y'shua also cast out demons with "the finger of YHWH" (Lk 11:20); this is the same finger of YHWH that was used in Exodus 19 to write the 10 Commandments. Same.

3) The "New" Covenant is a fulfillment and a reflection of the "Old" Covenant...they are RENEWED Covenants, not "old" and "new". One didn't replace the other. We may not be required to do animal sacrifice any more, but we ARE required to keep His commandments, as He has said repeatedly in his Torah. Colossians 2:16, Paul asks that the new believers not allow anyone to "judge you in food or drink or regarding a festival or a New Moon or Sabbaths". Why would he say this if there weren't believers that were keeping the Sabbath? Like my pastor always says, "We don't have to---we GET TO"....there's a huge difference between having to keep Sabbath and actually getting to do it. This is just my opinion, but if you want to keep the 7th day as a Sabbath rest, by all means, do so...if you want to gather on the 1st day of the week (Sun-day), by all means. Let no one condemn the other for doing what they think is correct. I believe in keeping Torah, celebrating the Feasts, and keeping Sabbath. I also fast on Feast days, if fasting is required (Unleavened Bread, Yom Kippur, Purim). I don't condemn my brethren that I live with for going to church on Sun-days.

That's all I'm going to say on the subject....

a.

Its become a tag line of sorts for me and others and its exactly what your pastor said, We don't have to we get to!! Its never a burden but a delight!

[JCISGD]

Hello JCISGD, thanks for your input, but my slight contention in this case was directed at Blindseeker.

This thread is interesting, and has bifurcated into two separate arguments namely those that are trying to work out if the expression the 'L-rds Day' indicated Saturday or Sunday...something in which I have not got involved.

Then there is my argument/friendly discussion with Blindseeeker, who seems to insist that I am reading Scripture wrongly (it might be true, it has happened before, and I daresay will happen again) and that the expression in Matthew 28:1 where it says:-In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. still shows it was during the vestiges of the Shabbat that the two Mary's went off on their initial visit to the sepulchre of Joseph of Arimathea.

There are several events in the Bible that truly reward diligent searching because they help give a clearer picture when the chronology falls into place, like a jigsaw....one of them is the burying of Jesus, the process, and the various people involved in visiting the place where He was entombed. The other involves the ressurection appearances of Jesus, when and to whom, and the apparent conflictions within the fragmented snip-bits recorded.

I'm no scholar or authority either...

lol i hadnt even noticed you were not replying to me, my apologies Botz.

I am diligently trying to avoid the bifurcations.

Imo its stretching it too far to insert the IN the end of the sabbath to say it was still the seventh day. This is obscuring to prove a point.

I posted this topic as the habits of the early church proves that Jn 20:19, Acts 20:7 and 1 Cor 16:2 are to be taken as proof the disciples and earliest christians began to meet on the first day of the week to celebrate the Lords Day in rememberance of His work of redemption.

Christians are following Christ and have the leading of the Holy Spirit. I myself know whom i serve and why.

Peace to all.

[JCISGD]

Anita- early church history shows they all met on the first day, this disproves the charge that Constantine changed it. He did make it an official day of rest, but thats not the same as changing it.

Joshua- the bible often uses figurative language and hyperbole. In light of the acccepted fact that we will not keep certain days in heaven, common sense therefore proves that the use of "forever" does not reach into eternity in this usage.

This Post is about the historical proof of what the earliest church did, and so far no one has proved otherrwise. Anyone who discounts recorded history has very little proof of anything imo, the bible itself is a historical library of books that is verified by the same methods we verify other historical records.