What do you think of the conditional immortality/anhilationism?

[Psalm3720]

Being the view shared by Jehovah's Witness's, Seventh Day Adventists and followers of the teachings of Victor Paul Wierwille (being myself) that the fate of the unsaved is to die and cease to exist while the fate of the saved is eternal life itself.

I will give the condensed arguement for my view bellow, chopped out of an anti-hell article I wrote once:

"

Hell does not exist as we underestand it. It is not a place of eternal torment.

How can I make this claim? First, know that in the Old Testament, the word “hell” is translated solely from the Hebrew word, “sheol,” which is also translated as “grave” and “pit” in the King James Version of the Bible. In the book of Genesis, Jacob expects that he will one day die and go to sheol (Genesis 37:35). In fact, in the book of Job, the title character desires to die and go to sheol, specifically to avoid his suffering (Job 14:13). Also know that when the New Testament quotes Hebrew scripture that contains “sheol,” it translates that as the Greek word, “hades,” from which many uses of “hell” in the New Testament are translated (Acts 2:25-28). “Hell” just refers to the state of death.

So, what is the fate of the unsaved? What is the “eternal fire” (Jude 1:7)? It is “consuming fire” (Hebrew 12:29). It is eternal death, utter destruction of the body and soul (Matthew 10:28). Consider Psalm 37:18-20: “The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever. They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied. But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”

Consider similarly John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” When God said “perish” as opposed to “have everlasting life,” he actually did say “perish.” He did not say “should not have bad everlasting life, but have good everlasting life.”

Any torment would be in the initial process leading to their smoky second death and utter consumption by eternally burning fire (Revelation 14:11).

"

What's your view on this matter? Am I a heretic? Or onto a biblical truth that has been lost in wide-decimination of false doctrine and mistranslation?

I will just say that my arguement against Luke 16 right now is that it is a parable working within the framework of Pharosetic afterlife beliefs and that nowhere else in the bible is the afterlife every mentioned as a place of consciousness. It also mentioned that the dead are asleep John 11:11 and in 1 Corinthians 15 a bunch of times as well as Epesians 5:14 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14. Anyway, the "hell" in Luke 16 would refer to the afterlife for both the good and bad.

But yes, I do ascribe to the soul-sleep followed by immortality for the saved and literal second death for the unsecond death beliefs.Doesn't that make more sense? It was realizing that those beliefs were true and biblical that made me accept the word of God in the first place because I could never fathom the idea of hell, and it didn't make sense.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Psalm3720

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

I could never fathom the idea of hell, and it didn't make sense.

Therein lay your problem.

We can't examine God or His Word based upon our human and imperfect understanding. Our understanding is tainted with sin and we may project our own weakness upon God's Just nature.

Following Weirwille is your second fault. Anyone who states that Jesus Christ is not God is in direct violation of Christs' own words. This can lead to an imperfect picture of our Lord and an imperfect revelation of His nature and Word.

I would resolve who Christ in fact is as revealed in His Word before tackling the Doctrine of Hell.

peace,

Dave

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Here's a good dissertation on "The Way" and why it is a cult and not Orthodox Christianity.

http://carm.org/way-international

Peace,

Dave

Worthy Servant

[other one]

"

What's your view on this matter? Am I a heretic? Or onto a biblical truth that has been lost in wide-decimination of false doctrine and mistranslation?

Well since you asked, I vote heretic..... but as Dave relates, it goes way beyond the length of time one would spend aware of the fire.

[Fraught]

What can I say? At least let you know you are not alone, maybe. The issue of hell has never been resolved to my satisfaction, either. In every other way, I am a fundamentalist. My argument is maybe more simple. I just wonder why. What is the point of eternal torment? What does Jesus mean when He says don't fear those who can destroy the body, fear those who destroy the soul? It does all come down to whether or not are souls are mortal until they are born again, at which point they become immortal. I just don't know. I follow God because I believe everything God says. I believe that God is reality, that everything else is shadow. I believe that, in following the Lord Jesus Christ, I am doing as I was created to do, that if I did anything else, my life would be a lie and really, just a waste of space.

The argument for hell must imply that we are created immortal, and I don't refute it altogether. If we are indeed immortal, then certainly when God reconciles all creation, some will be outside God and how will they bear up when God is all around and about them. think the israelites around the mountain, certainly they could not bear for God to speak directly to them or get too close. ok, i'm rambling but you see my dilemma, i think.

For sure, though, one day we'll know. LOL

[boldlion]

'Gehenna' is a place of eternal torment.

Mt 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Edited July 5, 2011 by boldlion

[boldlion]

Being the view shared by Jehovah's Witness's, Seventh Day Adventists and followers of the teachings of Victor Paul Wierwille (being myself) that the fate of the unsaved is to die and cease to exist while the fate of the saved is eternal life itself.

I will give the condensed arguement for my view bellow, chopped out of an anti-hell article I wrote once:

"

Hell does not exist as we underestand it. It is not a place of eternal torment.

How can I make this claim? First, know that in the Old Testament, the word “hell” is translated solely from the Hebrew word, “sheol,” which is also translated as “grave” and “pit” in the King James Version of the Bible. In the book of Genesis, Jacob expects that he will one day die and go to sheol (Genesis 37:35). In fact, in the book of Job, the title character desires to die and go to sheol, specifically to avoid his suffering (Job 14:13). Also know that when the New Testament quotes Hebrew scripture that contains “sheol,” it translates that as the Greek word, “hades,” from which many uses of “hell” in the New Testament are translated (Acts 2:25-28). “Hell” just refers to the state of death.

Firstly, your definition is wrong. It is a mistake to use the translator's usage of the term to define the meaning of the word. For instance:

H7585 sh'owl or shol; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates :- grave, hell, pit.

Notice the words after the ":-" symbols which refer to the KJ translator's usage of the term and not the actual definition itself.

So, what is the fate of the unsaved? What is the “eternal fire” (Jude 1:7)? It is “consuming fire” (Hebrew 12:29). It is eternal death, utter destruction of the body and soul (Matthew 10:28). Consider Psalm 37:18-20: “The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever. They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied. But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”

Mt 10:28 "And do not fear from those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna (1067).

G1067 geena valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment.

Why would God annihilate someone in the place of everlasting punishment ? This would contradict the entire purpose of 'Gehenna'.

Consider similarly John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” When God said “perish” as opposed to “have everlasting life,” he actually did say “perish.” He did not say “should not have bad everlasting life, but have good everlasting life.”

Matthew 18:8 Now, if your hand or your foot is snaring you, strike it off and cast it from you. Is it ideal for you to be entering into life maimed or lame, or, having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the fire eternal?

Notice Matthew 18:8 does not explicitly state eternal life either, but we know from the context of the text that it is referring to 'eternal life'. Likewise, the scriptures don't have to always explicitly state terms like "eternal death", "perishing forever" etc.

Any torment would be in the initial process leading to their smoky second death and utter consumption by eternally burning fire (Revelation 14:11).

"

Revelation 14:11 And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. And they are having no rest day and night, those worshiping the wild beast and its image, and if anyone is getting the emblem of its name.

"Having no rest day and night" certainly doesn't indicate annhilation but a continuous awareness.

Conclusion

Many, including Christians, choose to either ignore the concept of 'eternal punishment' or explain it away in terms of concepts like 'annihilationism'. However, I believe that this is an excuse used by unbelievers and some Christians to justify themselves by not doing what God wants them to do. The errors above are typical responses by sadly, even many Christians. I believe that these errors typically stem from the belief that God is love and therefore would not put someone into such a horrible position. However, this idea is false and does not reflect the Word of God. Make no mistake, the place for the unrighteous is one of eternal torment. Perhaps I can leave the reader with a final scripture.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall be coming away into chastening forever, yet the just into life eternal."

[Openly Curious]

name='Psalm3720' timestamp='1290148637' post='1623270

Hell does not exist as we underestand it. it is not a place of eternal torment

The Word of God begs to differ with you. Hell exist and the horrors of hell the natural man doesn't want to know the truth so it's nothing knew if Satan would spread his lies in how the wicked will not be punished in the eternal torments of hell that the scripture warns and decribes in detail. Why would a sinner come to know the Lord if there was no everlasting consequences for our sins. From a sinners point of view they'll just cease to exist one day but so what I can live a life of pleasure whatever sins I wanted to indulge in and according to Satan's lies there'll be no everlasting punishment pretty crafty of the devils part.

Also know that when the New Testament quotes Hebrew scripture that contains “sheol,” it translates that as the Greek word, “hades,” from which many uses of “hell” in the New Testament are translated (Acts 2:25-28). “Hell” just refers to the state of death.

The Word of God tells us that hell is a literal "PLACE" and hell has nothing to do with a persons "state of death" weather a believer or non-believer.

So, what is the fate of the unsaved? What is the “eternal fire” (Jude 1:7)? *It is “consuming fire” (Hebrew 12:29). It is eternal death, utter destruction of the body and soul

There is no mystery or hidden meaning in what "eternal fire" is for it simply means a literal fire that shall never be quenched the eternal place of the wicked. I would like to point out that the scripture you used in your quote "Hebrews 12:29" has been twisted by saying that the "fire" mentioned in vs 29) is a "consuming fire" the OT story surrounding this verse is ( Exodus 19:1-25) when Moses had lead the children of Israel from Egypt back to Mount Sinai in the desert as God instructed him to do. But in your quote you left out "GOD" from the scripture which was meant to deceive in order to show that the "fire" is not eternal but instead it's a "consuming fire" that totally destroys to the point of ceasing to exist total annilated. But the scripture has been twisted into what itching ears want to hear but the verse correctly says......

Hebrews 12:29-- For our "God" is a consuming fire.

Since this verse has been twisted the deception or lie of Satan says, there is no everlasting punishment your body will just be consumed cease to exist eternally the end utter destruction body and soul.

Any torment would be in the initial process leading to their smoky second death and utter consumption by eternally burning fire (Revelation 14:11).

So at the moment of death the wicked at the second death will be consumed annilated cease to exist as the ever burning fire will just burn them up no longer exist a serious misinterpretation of scripture.

What's your view on this matter? Am I a heretic? Or onto a biblical truth that has been lost in wide-decimination of false doctrine and mistranslation?

Yes, I believe you along with others who spreads this false doctrine in any fashion would make you a heretic. Instead of spreading biblical truth you only end up spreading deeper depths of satan's deception by turning the truth into a lie.

I will just say that my arguement against Luke 16 right now is that it is a parable working within the framework of Pharosetic afterlife beliefs and that nowhere else in the bible is the afterlife every mentioned as a place of consciousness. It also mentioned that the dead are asleep John 11:11 and in 1 Corinthians 15 a bunch of times as well as Epesians 5:14 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14. Anyway, the "hell" in Luke 16 would refer to the afterlife for both the good and bad.

IMO when you said, "hell" in Luke 16 would refer to the afterlife for both the "good" and "bad." this statement shows an eternal place for both the righteous and the wicked (unrighteous) two places and once entering there is no going back to the former things. Itching ear doctrines even have some truths mixed in to give the hearers the calm while promising them along the way that there is no storm.

But yes, I do ascribe to the soul-sleep followed by immortality for the saved and literal second death for the unsecond death beliefs.Doesn't that make more sense? It was realizing that those beliefs were true and biblical that made me accept the word of God in the first place because I could never fathom the idea of hell, and it didn't make sense.

When it comes to the afterlife there are alot of theories like *reincarnation,* (it's like having a seemingly endless cycle of death and rebirth culminating in what's called nirvana which is nothing but an eternal nothingness) *universalism* (is all people will eventually find their way to heaven) and *annihilationism* (being those who don't know Christ will simply be annihilated, or just cease to exist) these theories are contrary to the Word of God, and it's that way because Gods Word reveals those who place their faith in Jesus Christ, thank God there is Heaven and those who have rejected him, then their is a hell

John 3:36 - "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not on the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Jesus made it very clear in the sermon on the mount in Matthew 7 that there was two gates, two paths, two crowds and two destinies. The two gates is Jesus who is the door and then all other ways but Jesus alone is the way, the truth and the life. The two paths a person travels once going through the gate as Jesus said that the only one that leads to life is the narrow gate and the narrow path. Then you got two groups or crowds the few who find life and the many who are on their way to destruction. Then there is two destinies which Jesus said are life and destruction.

Eleven out of twelve times "Gehenna" is refered to in the bible was on the very lips of Jesus. It's described as a place of unquenchable fire, worms that will never die, a lake burning with sulphur, the second death, blackness of darkness forever, separation from the presence of our Lord, outer darkness, and a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. The Word of God is very plain in the fearsome description of the eternal destiny of every person who rejects the only "begotten" Son of God who is the only Saviour of the world to the lost Christ is their only hope.

The main liberal or contemporary, theological issue that's surrounding the subject of Gehenna (lake of fire) is it's duration. In other words is the punishment in the lake of fire eternal (never ending) ? There's a new doctrine that has cropped up in both the theological and evangelical circles during our time but the doctrine really isn't new. It's kinda like an old theory that has been doctored or dressed up a little bit. What I'm talking about is the theory known as "annihilationism," or "conditional mortality" which is what the thread is about.

Annihilationism is the view that "all" souls are immortal, but the wicked will lose their immortality at the judgment. Meaning they are immortal, but whenever they come before God to be judged, they lose their immortality and will be annihilated. The terrible thing about this doctrine of "conditional immortality" is that it teaches that the human souls are not inherently mortal, so what happens because of this is that those who are damned (the wicked) in the judgment just pass into oblivion, while the righteous believers are given immortality. "Bottom line is, Hell is not eternal." What a false doctrine--the truth is that everyone born into this world will live forever in the afterlife their is no escaping eternity one will not pass into oblivion and human souls are inherently mortal. This false doctrine uses several words for the argument that there is no eternal punishment for the wicked

Those who fail to believe in Jesus Christ "do not have immoratality" and will not spend an eternity in separation from God.

[Guest]

Jesus!

I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation 1:18

Seriously Brother

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 20:10

Just Don't Mess With Him

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Revelation 20:11-12

And The Bible Is God's Own Truth, Don't Mess With It Either

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13-15

____________

Hell does not exist as we understand it. It is not a place of eternal torment.... What's your view on this matter? Am I a heretic? Or onto a biblical truth that has been lost in wide-decimation of false doctrine and mistranslation?

Beloved, I Believe You Are Greatly Confused And Sorely Mislead

Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled:

But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness. Isaiah 5:24-26

By The Philosophies Of Men

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8

And Other Creatures

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said.... Genesis 3:1 (a-d)

Turning You

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:24

From Truth

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

____________

Welcome To Worthy

Stand Fast On The Truth And Be Blessed Beloved

Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Acts 20:26-30

Love, Joe