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Posted

Shiloh your link wouldnt work for me, but i will go read what i can find and concede to you if i see what you say. Either way im not going to play ping pong anymore.

Luther was not born again christian imo, but i dont know what his end state was and we are commanded not to go there.

Connecting electrodes now.

Martin Luther was not a born again Christian?:blink:

It was scripture like this that made him post his 95 thesis in opposition to the Romish Church;

Ro 5:1

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Arthur, why bow out now?:noidea:

Peace,

Dave


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Posted

Arthur, why bow out now?:noidea:

Peace,

Dave

Well to be frank, there is not much point in arguing about something from a platform of ignorance.... lack of the true facts and mis-informed guess-work just compound things. :wub:


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Posted

Shiloh your link wouldnt work for me, but i will go read what i can find and concede to you if i see what you say. Either way im not going to play ping pong anymore.

Luther was not born again christian imo, but i dont know what his end state was and we are commanded not to go there.

Connecting electrodes now.

Martin Luther was not a born again Christian?:blink:

It was scripture like this that made him post his 95 thesis in opposition to the Romish Church;

Ro 5:1

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Arthur, why bow out now?:noidea:

Peace,

Dave

Recieves nasty shock *Ouch!* but stil continues.

Ok ill answer your Dave because its a different topic. Mostly i think my involvement in this topic has become a defence of the topic i started in controversial, and its just going around and around imo. Good try Botz but im not taking the bait. :laugh:

Just to be clear though Dave i did say "imo" and that scripture forbids me from saying wether he weht to hell or heaven.

Intellectual belief is not the same as saving faith no matter how many good works come from it.

I will ask you, do you think someone with the Holy Spirit can go on crusades to murder people? When i became saved i could no longer hunt animals for pleasure, but only for food or necessity.

I admit that being strongly entrenched in the papal system may have darkened his heart such that his conscience was not tender?

But why then are the other church fathers seen as hateful anti-semitics if they had the same excuse of ignorance as you are assigning to Luther?

Posted

But why then are the other church fathers seen as hateful anti-semitics if they had the same excuse of ignorance as you are assigning to Luther?

His writings may have caused as much misery for Jewish people as anything in all of world history. Yet we are each saved by grace through strong trust....and are still sinners. Still, in the long run it seems how we end up is more important than how we started out.

I don't think anyone can claim ignorance when it comes to provoking violence against someone with their words. No one is forcing them to do so and we are commanded to control our tongue.

Yet I also don't have any problem with people who enter the military to protect their nation


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Posted

Shiloh your link wouldnt work for me, but i will go read what i can find and concede to you if i see what you say. Either way im not going to play ping pong anymore.

Luther was not born again christian imo, but i dont know what his end state was and we are commanded not to go there.

Connecting electrodes now.

Here's a link and another another I hope one of them works, I think the second was the original link given.

Guest shiloh357
Posted

Why then did Jesus groan more than once saying "how much longer must i bear with you" and "are you so dull that you do not understand yet"

The only time I recall Jesus saying, "How much longer must I bear with you," was when the disciples could not heal the boy with seizures.

The only times I recall Jesus saying, "Are you so dull that you do not understand yet," was to the disciples when they were not understanding the message of His parables.

But neither of these things have anything to do with the "Hebrew mindset" we have been talking about.

:emot-questioned: The diciples had the hebrew mindset you are talking about and yet they couldnt grasp nearly everthing Jesus was saying.

Im bowing out of this topic again, and attaching electrodes to give me electric shocks if i try to post here. :laugh:

I guess that is easier than having to engage facts and issues that you had not previously considered. Retreating back into ignorance is always the easy way out.


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Posted

Shiloh your link wouldnt work for me, but i will go read what i can find and concede to you if i see what you say. Either way im not going to play ping pong anymore.

Luther was not born again christian imo, but i dont know what his end state was and we are commanded not to go there.

Connecting electrodes now.

Here's a link and another another I hope one of them works, I think the second was the original link given.

Thanks Mizzdy your a legend.

I will admit that he used some very strong language, and calling the Jews the vilest of all men is extreme. However i have never held Constantine up on this forum as an example, and more importantly we do not know the heart or context of his words.

Some of Pauls words were equally strong.

"If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come!" 1 Corinthians 16:22

It appears to me Paul said much the same thing as Constantine only the latter perhaps needed qualify his statement.

The Vikings from which i descend were once considered barbarians and a vilest people by some, and who can object given their practices. Its not wrong to call vile that which is. Paul seems to have compassion on the lazy, lying Cretans, but not those who reject Christ.

I only began my first topic on the early church fathers as i was astonished at the causes of their deaths and their supernatural endurance during their martyrdom. My question is, if these who were shown great mercy by God in their deaths are not true christians, then who at those times were and where are their writings?

I know some of you approve of Polycarp, but you reject those he was intimate with, some of whom were also pupils of either Pauls disciples or the apostle John himself.

I am not here to defend any hatred of the Jews, im only saying history does prove early christians did recieve new observances with the new covenant and that the Holy Spirit was responsible for ushering in these observances and worship of Christ in spirit and in truth.

To date no one has shown otherwise imo.


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Posted

I guess that is easier than having to engage facts and issues that you had not previously considered. Retreating back into ignorance is always the easy way out.

So far nobody has brought any facts and issues i have not carefully considered. You call it retreat and ignorance, ill let God be my judge on that.

Posted

I know some of you approve of Polycarp, but you reject those he was intimate with, some of whom were also pupils of either Pauls disciples or the apostle John himself.

like who? You're making assumptions without any research at all evidently. He would have known Ignatius and was a contemporary of Clement. That's about it...

Polycarp is known to have observed the Sabbath according the Word of God.

St. Ignatius saw believers "no longer observing the [Jewish] Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day", and amplified this point as follows: "Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness .... But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them. And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days

This is a complete mockery of the commandments given in the Word of God, but worse it implies that anyone who does observe the Sabbath (as given by God) is to be held in contempt. Where is the grace in that?

You can't find a single place in the scriptures where the Lord (or anyone else) overturns the Sabbath. That simply didn't happen until the faith became overwhelmingly gentile and they were utterly and completely ignorant of the torah. Still, no one is condemning them for meeting on any day they wish.

But I can't in good conscience take any man's opinion over the scriptures, no matter how much other men might revere him.

I am not here to defend any hatred of the Jews, im only saying history does prove early christians did recieve new observances with the new covenant and that the Holy Spirit was responsible for ushering in these observances and worship of Christ in spirit and in truth.

To date no one has shown otherwise imo.

The "new" observances given by the Jews in the Newer Covenant are baptism (mikveh is pre-christian) and communion (also pre-christian and commemorates the passover). The original community of Jerusalem is the only one who knew the Lord personally. They are the only authentic version worth studying, if you want to know what is authentic.

These other liturgies you mention are not necessarily wicked or pagan, but they aren't scriptural either. Apparently you think anyone who lived more than 1000 years ago can contradict the Word of God, and yet they are somehow agreeing with the Holy Spirit?

Have you thought this through at all? Why is it you revere and trust the opinions of men who were ignorant of anything written in hebrew?

It just makes no sense if you are trying to get at the root of the truth. It's like asking a man what it's like to have a baby. They can give you their opinions all day but they aren't talking from much experience.

.


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Posted

I know some of you approve of Polycarp, but you reject those he was intimate with, some of whom were also pupils of either Pauls disciples or the apostle John himself.

like who? You're making assumptions without any research at all evidently. He would have known Ignatius and was a contemporary of Clement. That's about it...

Polycarp is known to have observed the Sabbath according the Word of God.

St. Ignatius saw believers "no longer observing the [Jewish] Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord

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