Lucifer?

[enoob57]

Here is a study that may interest anyone who want to understand what is Satan's part in God's perfect plan.

It was a good study thank you Brother of mine! Love Steven

[j102]

Brother,

Yes Adam was on the earth physically, but spiritually he could have been no other place but "in heaven" until he fell.

That's not what Scripture say's. Please provide me a verse for reproof.

Are you stating that Adam pre-existed as a Spirit before God created him?

Peace,

Dave

No, I'm not saying he was a pre-existing spirit. We were delivered from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:13,) that is where we are even now, do you agree. Adam had no sin, he was perfect in all his ways until iniquity was found in him. So, if he wasn't in the kingdom of heaven positionally what kingdom was he in? Do we not call Adam's transgression "the fall." If so then from where did he fall?

What we do know is that Adam walked with God and talked with God until he ate of the tree. We see Moses when he came down of the Mountain after receiving the Commandments, he had to cover his face to hide the glory of God which was shining forth from being near to God for some short period of time. How do we suppose Adam's appearance was when he communed with God all the time.

On the other side of the equation, if we would gather together all the Scriptural references that are suppose to cause us to know that Satan is a fallen angel I know, if we would look at it honestly and without prejudice, we would see that teaching is completely full of wholes. For those who will look at that side of the coin as well. Upon what does Satan being Lucifer stand, and what Scriptures are used to shore up that teaching.

Yours in Christ

The Lord of Glory said this;

Lu 10:18

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

It correlates to this;

Re 12:7

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Re 12:8

And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Re 12:9

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I see no where in Scripture where Adam fell from heaven. He fell from Grace but not from heaven.

I want a scriptural reference that places Adam in heaven so that he could fall, not your opinion. My opinion and your opinion don't add up to a whole lot of nothing outside of the Word of God.

What in your opinion is satan then if not a fallen angel?

Here's some scripture for re-proof;

Jude 1:6

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

This earth was Created for mankind not the angels.

Peace,

Dave

Lu 10:18

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

In this passage of Scripture from Lu 10:1-20, where Jesus sends them out two by two to minister, and when they come back they are excited about the fact that unclean spirits are made subject unto them. If, in fact, the Lord Jesus, at this point, is making some sort of reference to a battle in heaven before man ever was it just doesn't make any sense in the context. However, if it is a statement as to the Lord's authority and power and what He sees taking place at this moment in time it becomes a much clearer picture.

The Greek word theōreō, interpreted beheld means, behold, consider, look on, perceive, see. And the Greek word piptō, here interpreted fall, means, most directly, to fall (literally or figuratively.)

Now, from the context of Scripture here in Luke, it appears that the Lord said,

[Guest man]

The real time subject of this passage of Scripture is that the disciples were, in that moment, experiencing victory over the enemy, and the Lord was emphasizing the fact that this signaled the beginning of the end of Satan being able to enter into heaven and be the accuser of the brethren.

How was/is Satan able to communicate with God after this event in Luke 10:1-20 ?

[sdktlk]

The real time subject of this passage of Scripture is that the disciples were, in that moment, experiencing victory over the enemy, and the Lord was emphasizing the fact that this signaled the beginning of the end of Satan being able to enter into heaven and be the accuser of the brethren.

How was/is Satan able to communicate with God after this event in Luke 10:1-20 ?

Hello Man, As I stated, this was the beginning of the end of Satan having access to heaven whereby he could go before God and "accuse the brethren." If we take that same question that you asked and apply it to the doctrine of Satan having been cast out of heaven before there ever was man, why in the world can I see him come before the Throne of God in Job 1:6 and 2:1 to present himself and have a conversation with God?

When the Lord Jesus defeated Satan on the Cross it was at that time that Satan and his messengers were cast out. He is no longer able to "accuse the brethren" before God he is confined to the earth realm and again, as in the garden, is confined to tempting and being an adversary of the children of God. He, pretending to be a roaring lion, "walks about seeking whom he may devour." (1Pet 5:8) He is unable to come into the presence of God and converse any longer, but he knows what his job is that's for sure. Yours in Christ

[nebula]

When the Lord Jesus defeated Satan on the Cross it was at that time that Satan and his messengers were cast out. He is no longer able to "accuse the brethren" before God...

So, you are saying Revelation 12:10 already took place?

"Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night."

[sdktlk]

When the Lord Jesus defeated Satan on the Cross it was at that time that Satan and his messengers were cast out. He is no longer able to "accuse the brethren" before God...

So, you are saying Revelation 12:10 already took place?

"Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night."

I do. Salvation "NOW is come" with the resurrection and ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Matthitjah]

Brother,

This is easily seen as not being something that happened before Adam and Eve were in the garden. For we read,

[nebula]

The focus isn't Adam and it isn't satan, it's Jesus Christ.

To Him be all honor and glory and power!

Amen!

[sdktlk]

Brother,

This is easily seen as not being something that happened before Adam and Eve were in the garden. For we read, “...for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night...” (Rev 12:10b) If this particular event took place prior to there being “brethren” on the earth then we can make no sense of it at all.

You're not making any sense at all.

If he were not cast down out of heaven at this point, how do we find him in the garden opposing God?

As for this;

The Lord Jesus said of Satan, that is the devil, “He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.” (Jn 8:44) The Greek word archē, here interpreted beginning, means from the commencement or from the first. By the very words of the Lord Jesus I find myself hard pressed to believe it when it is said that from the commencement or from the first Satan was an angel of light, and THEN became something else, as that idea does not hold true with what the Lord Jesus said.

You appear to be ascribing satan's evil to our Lord in some fashion. Stating that God created him for the purpose and the role he now plays.

meanwhile you make the very argument I made back in the beginning of this thread about the name Lucifer. That it was his name in heaven as the Covering Cherub, but that after the fall his name changed to reflect his new charecter.

Thanks for making my argument more sound.

You still haven't presented any scripture that indicates that Adam fell from heaven. What you've done is what you've done from the beginning of this thread and shifted the focus from God to satan. That's why you find yourself in the dark and unable to substantiate your claims.

The focus isn't Adam and it isn't satan, it's Jesus Christ.

I'm about ready to close this thread now unless you can substantiate your claims with scripture that Adam is Lucifer and has fallen from heaven.

Peace,

Dave

Dave said, "You appear to be ascribing satan's evil to our Lord in some fashion. Stating that God created him for the purpose and the role he now plays."

If we see Pharaoh as a "type" of Satan, which I think mostly all would, then we see the LORD God saying to Pharaoh by the mouth of Moses, "And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee My power; and that My Name may be declared throughout all the earth." (Exo 9:16) Does this not say that it was the Lord Who raised Pharaoh (type of Satan) up for a specific purpose? Why then would it be hard to grasp that the Lord created Satan for a specific task?

Edited January 21, 2011 by sdktlk

[Rick-Parker]

WB is getting bazarr folks...

That because, IMO, people debate people preaching a strange and different Gospel for a dozen pages and still allow it to continue.