Who is Jesus?

[MorningGlory]

The resurrection of Jesus is historical fact. Many have tried for years to debunk the resurrection of Jesus, but it always ends up leading to the resurrection. If Jesus is raised from the dead as He promised He would be, believing in the miracles like the feeding of the 5,000 is not problematic at all.

Based on what evidence?

The exact same common sense you hopefully use everyday! These written letters were by men who died for their belief in Christ; they were taught by Him that if they lie (sin) that was of no part of Him and those who practiced such things were not of Him! Now they loved Him enough to die for His Name and testimony for what they saw Him do and you doubt the voracity of their claim as being true? You might consider this carefully! Love Steven

I am afraid that I do doubt it. As Hume rightly pointed out, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Theirs is not enough. Also, men have died for all manner of curious causes and reasons.

Or again, as Hume puts it;

When anyone tells me, that he saw a dead man restored to life, I immediately consider with myself, whether it be more probable, that this person should either deceive or be deceived, or that the fact, which he relates, should have really happened. I weigh the one miracle against the other; and according to the superiority, which I discover, I pronounce my decision, and always reject the greater miracle. If the falsehood of the testimony would be more miraculous, than the event which he relates; then, and not till then, can he pretend to command my belief or opinion.

I have to ask the obvious, Cato. Do you really think you're so important that the Creator owes you explanations for His work? That is some major arrogance there. You are but one of His creations and, while important to Him, you're no different than any of the other 6 billion plus souls on earth.

[808state]

So, then why would they put their lives on the line for a story they made up and they knew was a basically a fabrication??? Why would they on the one hand, after Jesus' crucifixion, paralyzed with fear dreading the possibility that they were going to be hunted down and killed just like Jesus and then suddenly being willing to bodly face imprisonment, torture, death, etc. for a lie they perpetrated???

There has to be a more logical explanation for the radical change.

Well, if they made up or exaggerated Jesus's story, what would stop them from making up or exaggerating their own?

Furthermore, if they were making stories up, how come no one, among their contemporaries were able to debunk or refute their claims? Jesus was pretty popular among the regular people and was a very public figure. It would be hard to make up a story that could not debunked by other witnesses who knew enough to contradict them.

If my friends and I claimed that we saw our other friend, let's call him Joe, flying without the aid of anything, who could prove that we didn't see that?

The problem is that they don't. When do lunatics or liars do that??? Lunatics make inane babblings and nonsensical statements that have no rational basis. Liars are just that. They are liars. Jesus emphasied honesty and truth. Liars don't do that. Truth is inimical to their character.

First, how are we defining "lunatic"? You can be mentally unstable, and keep a certain amount of composure. You can certainly be capable of repeating other people's ideas.

As far as liars go, most people have lied at some point in their life, and most people would say that lying is wrong. I mean look at politicians. It's not unbelievable that someone would preach one thing and then do the opposite.

The resurrection of Jesus is historical fact. Many have tried for years to debunk the resurrection of Jesus, but it always ends up leading to the resurrection. If Jesus is raised from the dead as He promised He would be, believing in the miracles like the feeding of the 5,000 is not problematic at all.

Just because people can't disprove something, it doesn't make it a fact. That's a logical fallacy. If that were the case, then it would be a fact that my friend, "Joe", can fly.

That assertion that they are in the same boat only demonstrates that you have not done any really serious comparison. The available data simply does not support that assertion. Why believe something that is demonstratably false? Why believe something just to believe it?

Could you point me in the direction of this available data?

The original disciples were not dying for a religion or a faith. They were dying for their eyewitness testimony that Jesus was alive. For 40 days after His resurrection, They saw Him, ate with Him, talked to Him, touched Him, and saw Him taken bodily into heaven. They were not dying for a "belief" or a "religion." They were dying for what they saw, touched and experienced first hand, and their enemies were helpless to refute them. All they could do is persecute them in order to get them to cease preaching that Jesus was alive.

Again, we don't know that their eyewitness testimonies actually happened the way they said they happened.

[OneLight]

808, I thought you should consider this chapter.

1 Corinthians 15

The Risen Christ, Faith

[MorningGlory]

I have to ask the obvious, Cato. Do you really think you're so important that the Creator owes you explanations for His work? That is some major arrogance there. You are but one of His creations and, while important to Him, you're no different than any of the other 6 billion plus souls on earth.

It is difficult to conceive of any way that I might be owed anything by an entity that I do not think exists. I'm also not a 'creation'.

[OneLight]

I have to ask the obvious, Cato. Do you really think you're so important that the Creator owes you explanations for His work? That is some major arrogance there. You are but one of His creations and, while important to Him, you're no different than any of the other 6 billion plus souls on earth.

It is difficult to conceive of any way that I might be owed anything by an entity that I do not think exists. I'm also not a 'creation'.

May I ask, what do you consider yourself?

[enoob57]

The resurrection of Jesus is historical fact. Many have tried for years to debunk the resurrection of Jesus, but it always ends up leading to the resurrection. If Jesus is raised from the dead as He promised He would be, believing in the miracles like the feeding of the 5,000 is not problematic at all.

Based on what evidence?

The exact same common sense you hopefully use everyday! These written letters were by men who died for their belief in Christ; they were taught by Him that if they lie (sin) that was of no part of Him and those who practiced such things were not of Him! Now they loved Him enough to die for His Name and testimony for what they saw Him do and you doubt the voracity of their claim as being true? You might consider this carefully! Love Steven

I am afraid that I do doubt it. As Hume rightly pointed out, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Theirs is not enough. Also, men have died for all manner of curious causes and reasons.

Or again, as Hume puts it;

When anyone tells me, that he saw a dead man restored to life, I immediately consider with myself, whether it be more probable, that this person should either deceive or be deceived, or that the fact, which he relates, should have really happened. I weigh the one miracle against the other; and according to the superiority, which I discover, I pronounce my decision, and always reject the greater miracle. If the falsehood of the testimony would be more miraculous, than the event which he relates; then, and not till then, can he pretend to command my belief or opinion.

Okay your not going to consider carefully so I leave to your clock that is ticking away at your own godness.... Love Steven

[MorningGlory]

I have to ask the obvious, Cato. Do you really think you're so important that the Creator owes you explanations for His work? That is some major arrogance there. You are but one of His creations and, while important to Him, you're no different than any of the other 6 billion plus souls on earth.

It is difficult to conceive of any way that I might be owed anything by an entity that I do not think exists. I'm also not a 'creation'.

An interesting if somewhat immature response. You do yourself a disservice.

Not at all; I do YOU a disservice. I should be weeping instead. You are so pitiable.

[808state]

Not at all; I do YOU a disservice. I should be weeping instead. You are so pitiable.

Have you ever been laughed at for your beliefs, MorningGlory?

[enoob57]

One issue I've always had with the Bible is that, while reading it, it always felt like it was written and thought up by humans. It feels too convenient. It doesn't feel like it was inspired by a God of some sort, but by humans as an attempt to explain things that had yet be explained, to enforce a particular way of living, and perhaps to inspire people to move in a new direction. I can elaborate if you want.

As far as the claim of intelligent design goes, I have to ask, why are so many of his designs imperfect if they were designed intelligently?

Because of the history ascertained from The Bible (for nothing else goes back to creation) it can be only arrived at by faith in it's origins! However so it is with the greatest of minds in all other directions they also come to place where a designed faith needed in that which cannot yet be proved! So because it is God's descriptive element told and written through Moses 1700-1600 BC you say prove it and we cannot!... However around 1000 BC we become more able to arrive at evidence of the proof of Scripture through archeology and writings and dates of events become more proving in their appearance in God's Word.... as to date this truth is substantiated that what has previously been doubted in God's Word- till discovered artifacts come into examination-The History of God's Word has always been the winner of true reality. I must admit knowing myself and the histories of those like me it does seem that skepticism "as any good thing coming out of mankind is highly unlikely"... I would say ³/₄ of God's Word both says this and give examples of this and that is where you are getting that sense you speak of above... this all being the witness the ¹/₄ remaining describing the Idea and Person of God could not have come out of us or the world we are in for it would be a make believe with absolutely no proof till Christ Jesus was born and lived His historic 33 years on earth! Read the Gospels that give witness to the God Man our friend and Saviour Jesus Christ! If you wish to have proof of Him read the prophecies concerning His life and those around Him that were fulfilled 100⁰/₀ ... The very fact you are looking through the world and the sinners that dwell in it is the wrong focus instead direct it to The Son of God! This also answers the second portion of your comment God and the imperfect you witness around you... It is simply that satan through temptation has brought a curse upon God's creation and made man a sinful being who only has the ability to serve sin now were back to the ³/₄ witness of God about this fact... I would never wish to speak of my past for it is vile but I can of my present: I wake in the morning and the first thing I do is give praise and greetings to The Lord for the life I have in Him... no matter what the day brings I have this confidence that he will never leave me nor forsake me and the rest of the day I spend in witness of His unseen presence in all things... I see them because I know my prayers and I know His Word and He reveals Himself to me in this manner as this relationship has grown His spiritual presence with me is as real and satisfying as a friends corporeal presence. So much so that I now try to ignore the corporeal aspects of people and try to connect to them Spiritually for there is a more beautiful and satisfying depth of being and understanding relational wise ... this cannot be accomplished with the unsaved for their spirit is dead! There are two main facts God has taught us 1. He has not redeemed the world. 2. He has not redeemed our bodies from dust they have come and to dust they shall return. So you can understand to see life you do not look into death to find it.

The ones I found to be the most blind are those who think that they see... those who think they know... for they no longer seek but wait in themselves to teach others that there is no god!

Do you really, in your reason and logic , tainted by false understandings, believe your own abilities is dependable enough for you to gamble your eternity on?

I'm not here to teach anyone anything. I'm here to be taught. I do actively seek truth. I don't claim to have all the answers. But I'm not going to believe in something simply because of a threat. That's manipulation, and it shouldn't be necessary if we're talking about Truth.

I would never attack you or belittle you for my Father has placed love in my heart for you and I ask Him to give you light of life... that you may know and choose His Son Jesus Christ. What you perceive as threat is more a fearful fact that those who do not come to Christ for life will be by their choice separated from Him eternally... Here is a witness of Christ the Son

Luke 16:19-31

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"

NKJV

He tells to warn all who are without the light and life of Christ in them of this place

Ezek 33:11

11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

KJV

Love Steven

[808state]

Because of the history ascertained from The Bible (for nothing else goes back to creation) it can be only arrived at by faith in it's origins! However so it is with the greatest of minds in all other directions they also come to place where a designed faith needed in that which cannot yet be proved! So because it is God's descriptive element told and written through Moses 1700-1600 BC you say prove it and we cannot!... However around 1000 BC we become more able to arrive at evidence of the proof of Scripture through archeology and writings and dates of events become more proving in their appearance in God's Word.... as to date this truth is substantiated that what has previously been doubted in God's Word- till discovered artifacts come into examination-The History of God's Word has always been the winner of true reality. I must admit knowing myself and the histories of those like me it does seem that skepticism "as any good thing coming out of mankind is highly unlikely"... I would say ³/₄ of God's Word both says this and give examples of this and that is where you are getting that sense you speak of above... this all being the witness the ¹/₄ remaining describing the Idea and Person of God could not have come out of us or the world we are in for it would be a make believe with absolutely no proof till Christ Jesus was born and lived His historic 33 years on earth! Read the Gospels that give witness to the God Man our friend and Saviour Jesus Christ! If you wish to have proof of Him read the prophecies concerning His life and those around Him that were fulfilled 100⁰/₀ ... The very fact you are looking through the world and the sinners that dwell in it is the wrong focus instead direct it to The Son of God!

Right. But anyone could have made up a story about how the Earth/Universe came to be. Plenty did. And I have no doubt that there are historically factual information in the Bible, I would expect there to be, but that doesn't mean all of it is true. The prophecies involving Jesus take faith to believe in as there is no evidence of them out of the Bible. I genuinely, at this point, don't feel anything toward the religion that would lead me to have faith in it.

This also answers the second portion of your comment God and the imperfect you witness around you... It is simply that satan through temptation has brought a curse upon God's creation and made man a sinful being who only has the ability to serve sin now were back to the ³/₄ witness of God about this fact... I would never wish to speak of my past for it is vile but I can of my present: I wake in the morning and the first thing I do is give praise and greetings to The Lord for the life I have in Him... no matter what the day brings I have this confidence that he will never leave me nor forsake me and the rest of the day I spend in witness of His unseen presence in all things... I see them because I know my prayers and I know His Word and He reveals Himself to me in this manner as this relationship has grown His spiritual presence with me is as real and satisfying as a friends corporeal presence. So much so that I now try to ignore the corporeal aspects of people and try to connect to them Spiritually for there is a more beautiful and satisfying depth of being and understanding relational wise ... this cannot be accomplished with the unsaved for their spirit is dead! There are two main facts God has taught us 1. He has not redeemed the world. 2. He has not redeemed our bodies from dust they have come and to dust they shall return. So you can understand to see life you do not look into death to find it.

When I was speaking about the imperfections of the design, I wasn't speaking of immoral behavior. I was talking specifically about the imperfections in the physical design of humans and animals.

would never attack you or belittle you for my Father has placed love in my heart for you and I ask Him to give you light of life... that you may know and choose His Son Jesus Christ. What you perceive as threat is more a fearful fact that those who do not come to Christ for life will be by their choice separated from Him eternally... Here is a witness of Christ the Son

I understand. But if anything is going to lead me to Christ, the threat of Hell is not going to be it. It probably wouldn't make me a very good Christian if it did.

Edited February 11, 2011 by 808state