Judging God

[OneLight]

So we know that God is good because He is always righteous, and He is always righteous because He is good?

The problem with this circular logic is that even when you are confronted with direct evidence that God may, in fact, not be good, all that happens is that the evidence gets dismissed offhand because we "know" that God is "always good".

I don't play circular games when it comes to God. You may, but I won't. I cannot claim to understand everything God does. I take Him on faith. When anyone can answer the questions God presented to Job, then I would suggest they have the right to accuse and question Him.

Can you answer them?

Job 38

Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:

“Who is this who darkens counsel

By words without knowledge?

Now prepare yourself like a man;

I will question you, and you shall answer Me.

Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?

Tell Me, if you have understanding.

Who determined its measurements?

Surely you know!

Or who stretched the line upon it?

To what were its foundations fastened?

Or who laid its cornerstone,

When the morning stars sang together,

And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Or who shut in the sea with doors,

When it burst forth and issued from the womb;

When I made the clouds its garment,

And thick darkness its swaddling band;

When I fixed My limit for it,

And set bars and doors;

When I said,

‘This far you may come, but no farther,

And here your proud waves must stop!’

Have you commanded the morning since your days began,

And caused the dawn to know its place,

That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,

And the wicked be shaken out of it?

It takes on form like clay under a seal,

And stands out like a garment.

From the wicked their light is withheld,

And the upraised arm is broken.

Have you entered the springs of the sea?

Or have you walked in search of the depths?

Have the gates of death been revealed to you?

Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?

Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?

Tell Me, if you know all this.

Where is the way to the dwelling of light?

And darkness, where is its place,

That you may take it to its territory,

That you may know the paths to its home?

Do you know it, because you were born then,

Or because the number of your days is great?

Have you entered the treasury of snow,

Or have you seen the treasury of hail,

Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,

For the day of battle and war?

By what way is light diffused,

Or the east wind scattered over the earth?

Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water,

Or a path for the thunderbolt,

To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one,

A wilderness in which there is no man;

To satisfy the desolate waste,

And cause to spring forth the growth of tender grass?

Has the rain a father?

Or who has begotten the drops of dew?

From whose womb comes the ice?

And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth?

The waters harden like stone,

And the surface of the deep is frozen.

Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades,

Or loose the belt of Orion?

Can you bring out Mazzaroth in its season?

Or can you guide the Great Bear with its cubs?

Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?

Can you set their dominion over the earth?

Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,

That an abundance of water may cover you?

Can you send out lightnings, that they may go,

And say to you, ‘Here we are!’?

Who has put wisdom in the mind?

Or who has given understanding to the heart?

Who can number the clouds by wisdom?

Or who can pour out the bottles of heaven,

When the dust hardens in clumps,

And the clods cling together?

Can you hunt the prey for the lion,

Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,

When they crouch in their dens,

Or lurk in their lairs to lie in wait?

Who provides food for the raven,

When its young ones cry to God,

And wander about for lack of food?

Job 39

Do you know the time when the wild mountain goats bear young?

Or can you mark when the deer gives birth?

Can you number the months that they fulfill?

Or do you know the time when they bear young?

They bow down,

They bring forth their young,

They deliver their offspring.

Their young ones are healthy,

They grow strong with grain;

They depart and do not return to them.

Who set the wild donkey free?

Who loosed the bonds of the onager,

Whose home I have made the wilderness,

And the barren land his dwelling?

He scorns the tumult of the city;

He does not heed the shouts of the driver.

The range of the mountains is his pasture,

And he searches after every green thing.

Will the wild ox be willing to serve you?

Will he bed by your manger?

Can you bind the wild ox in the furrow with ropes?

Or will he plow the valleys behind you?

Will you trust him because his strength is great?

Or will you leave your labor to him?

Will you trust him to bring home your grain,

And gather it to your threshing floor?

The wings of the ostrich wave proudly,

But are her wings and pinions like the kindly stork’s?

For she leaves her eggs on the ground,

And warms them in the dust;

She forgets that a foot may crush them,

Or that a wild beast may break them.

She treats her young harshly, as though they were not hers;

Her labor is in vain, without concern,

Because God deprived her of wisdom,

And did not endow her with understanding.

When she lifts herself on high,

She scorns the horse and its rider.

Have you given the horse strength?

Have you clothed his neck with thunder?

Can you frighten him like a locust?

His majestic snorting strikes terror.

He paws in the valley, and rejoices in his strength;

He gallops into the clash of arms.

He mocks at fear, and is not frightened;

Nor does he turn back from the sword.

The quiver rattles against him,

The glittering spear and javelin.

He devours the distance with fierceness and rage;

Nor does he come to a halt because the trumpet has sounded.

At the blast of the trumpet he says, ‘Aha!’

He smells the battle from afar,

The thunder of captains and shouting.

Does the hawk fly by your wisdom,

And spread its wings toward the south?

Does the eagle mount up at your command,

And make its nest on high?

On the rock it dwells and resides,

On the crag of the rock and the stronghold.

From there it spies out the prey;

Its eyes observe from afar.

Its young ones suck up blood;

And where the slain are, there it is.”

Job 40:1-2

Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said:

Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him?

He who rebukes God, let him answer it.

[Valoran]

I don't play circular games when it comes to God. You may, but I won't. I cannot claim to understand everything God does. I take Him on faith. When anyone can answer the questions God presented to Job, then I would suggest they have the right to accuse and question Him.

Can you answer them?

Let me give you an analogy.

One day, a man named Brad is born, and he is incomprehensibly smarter than everyone else who had ever lived. By age 12 he cures cancer. Gradually, scientists test his cure and it works every time. The cure is distributed across the globe and cancer is eradicated, with no major side effects.

By age 13 Brad solves over a dozen unsolved mathematical problems that have stumped mathematicians for decades. The world’s greatest mathematicians pore over his proofs, and eventually conclude that they are all correct, though perhaps they could never have discovered these proofs by themselves.

By age 14 Brad proposes a solution for world peace and total nuclear disarmament that is able to persuade – and is enacted by – every national leader in the world.

By age 15 Brad proves beyond doubt the correct Theory of Everything that has long been the holy grail of physics research. The theory makes more accurate predictions than even the Standard Model, predictions which are verified thousands of times. The theory is also consistent with all other successful theories of science, is mathematically consistent, and is startlingly simple.

In his 16th year of life, Brad rapes a young girl.

There is a large public outcry, but Brad explains, “Listen, people. I have finally solved the problems of morality. I have discovered the most accurate moral theory possible, and according to this moral theory, it was morally obligatory that I rape the young girl. The theory is so complex that I could never make your average human minds understand it, but you’ve got to trust me! After all, aren’t I the smartest man on earth? Haven’t I cured cancer, solved the toughest problems in math, solves world conflict, and discovered the Theory of Everything? You’ve got to trust me – my raping the young girl was for the best. I can’t explain why to you, because the correct moral theory is beyond your comprehension. But who are you to question me? You know your minds are vastly inferior to my own. You should trust that I know what I’m doing. Raping that girl was for the best.”

Most people are persuaded by Brad’s appeal, and accept that raping the young girl probably was for the best, though they will never understand why. These people come to be known as Bradists.

A minority of people remain unconvinced by Brad’s appeal. They think raping the young girl was morally wrong. They propose various moral theories they think are plausible, and show that each of them demonstrates that raping the young girl was morally wrong. These people come to be known as anti-Bradists.

Brad goes on to rape 65 pre-teen girls in California, which he again claims is for the best. The gap between the Bradists and the anti-Bradists grows deeper, the Bradists still defending Brad’s actions, the anti-Bradists protesting even more loudly that rape is wrong, no matter what Brad says.

In his 17th year, Brad builds a machine capable of causing volcanos to erupt. Without warning anyone, Brad uses it on the Yellowstone Caldera, the largest supervolcano on the North American continent. The eruption is the largest volcanic eruption in recorded history. Within days, millions die as a result of the eruption. The ash surrounds the globe and causes deadly environmental irregularities all around the world.

The Bradists remain faithful, convinced that Brad knows what is best even if they can’t begin to comprehend how the eruption was morally good. Anti-Bradists protest in disbelief at their fellow humans who defend Brad in spite of his mass killing. But the Bradists repeat, “Who are you to judge Brad? Are you as smart as he is? Can you prove he is incorrect?”

What do you think?

[ayin jade]

When brad creates the universe, then the analogy would hold. Until then, it doesnt work.

God created. He set the rules for His creation. We have no right to judge Him.

[Valoran]

When brad creates the universe, then the analogy would hold. Until then, it doesnt work.

God created. He set the rules for His creation. We have no right to judge Him.

I must confess that I don't see why creating the universe automatically means that God is unquestionably moral and good. Can you elaborate?

Edited December 26, 2011 by Valoran

[ayin jade]

I dont think I can answer that to your satisfaction. Let me think on it for awhile before I post.

[Floatingaxe]

I don't play circular games when it comes to God. You may, but I won't. I cannot claim to understand everything God does. I take Him on faith. When anyone can answer the questions God presented to Job, then I would suggest they have the right to accuse and question Him.

Can you answer them?

Let me give you an analogy.

One day, a man named Brad is born, and he is incomprehensibly smarter than everyone else who had ever lived. By age 12 he cures cancer. Gradually, scientists test his cure and it works every time. The cure is distributed across the globe and cancer is eradicated, with no major side effects.

By age 13 Brad solves over a dozen unsolved mathematical problems that have stumped mathematicians for decades. The world’s greatest mathematicians pore over his proofs, and eventually conclude that they are all correct, though perhaps they could never have discovered these proofs by themselves.

By age 14 Brad proposes a solution for world peace and total nuclear disarmament that is able to persuade – and is enacted by – every national leader in the world.

By age 15 Brad proves beyond doubt the correct Theory of Everything that has long been the holy grail of physics research. The theory makes more accurate predictions than even the Standard Model, predictions which are verified thousands of times. The theory is also consistent with all other successful theories of science, is mathematically consistent, and is startlingly simple.

In his 16th year of life, Brad rapes a young girl.

There is a large public outcry, but Brad explains, “Listen, people. I have finally solved the problems of morality. I have discovered the most accurate moral theory possible, and according to this moral theory, it was morally obligatory that I rape the young girl. The theory is so complex that I could never make your average human minds understand it, but you’ve got to trust me! After all, aren’t I the smartest man on earth? Haven’t I cured cancer, solved the toughest problems in math, solves world conflict, and discovered the Theory of Everything? You’ve got to trust me – my raping the young girl was for the best. I can’t explain why to you, because the correct moral theory is beyond your comprehension. But who are you to question me? You know your minds are vastly inferior to my own. You should trust that I know what I’m doing. Raping that girl was for the best.”

Most people are persuaded by Brad’s appeal, and accept that raping the young girl probably was for the best, though they will never understand why. These people come to be known as Bradists.

A minority of people remain unconvinced by Brad’s appeal. They think raping the young girl was morally wrong. They propose various moral theories they think are plausible, and show that each of them demonstrates that raping the young girl was morally wrong. These people come to be known as anti-Bradists.

Brad goes on to rape 65 pre-teen girls in California, which he again claims is for the best. The gap between the Bradists and the anti-Bradists grows deeper, the Bradists still defending Brad’s actions, the anti-Bradists protesting even more loudly that rape is wrong, no matter what Brad says.

In his 17th year, Brad builds a machine capable of causing volcanos to erupt. Without warning anyone, Brad uses it on the Yellowstone Caldera, the largest supervolcano on the North American continent. The eruption is the largest volcanic eruption in recorded history. Within days, millions die as a result of the eruption. The ash surrounds the globe and causes deadly environmental irregularities all around the world.

The Bradists remain faithful, convinced that Brad knows what is best even if they can’t begin to comprehend how the eruption was morally good. Anti-Bradists protest in disbelief at their fellow humans who defend Brad in spite of his mass killing. But the Bradists repeat, “Who are you to judge Brad? Are you as smart as he is? Can you prove he is incorrect?”

What do you think?

To judge God, the only wise Judge, is eternally perilous, and in effect, places the one who does it in a place over and above God Himself.

There is no punishment for any particular sin in this life, but the punishment that exists is the fires of hell and complete condemnation---for what? Only for rejecting the One who came to remove one's burden of sin.

Why did He do that? for the only reason that we cannot do anything like it: perfect LOVE.

So, your self-serving scenario is only based on deeds. God doesn't judge according to deeds. He judges according to how we respond to His Son.

[OneLight]

I don't play circular games when it comes to God. You may, but I won't. I cannot claim to understand everything God does. I take Him on faith. When anyone can answer the questions God presented to Job, then I would suggest they have the right to accuse and question Him.

Can you answer them?

Let me give you an analogy.

One day, a man named Brad is born, and he is incomprehensibly smarter than everyone else who had ever lived. By age 12 he cures cancer. Gradually, scientists test his cure and it works every time. The cure is distributed across the globe and cancer is eradicated, with no major side effects.

By age 13 Brad solves over a dozen unsolved mathematical problems that have stumped mathematicians for decades. The world’s greatest mathematicians pore over his proofs, and eventually conclude that they are all correct, though perhaps they could never have discovered these proofs by themselves.

By age 14 Brad proposes a solution for world peace and total nuclear disarmament that is able to persuade – and is enacted by – every national leader in the world.

By age 15 Brad proves beyond doubt the correct Theory of Everything that has long been the holy grail of physics research. The theory makes more accurate predictions than even the Standard Model, predictions which are verified thousands of times. The theory is also consistent with all other successful theories of science, is mathematically consistent, and is startlingly simple.

In his 16th year of life, Brad rapes a young girl.

There is a large public outcry, but Brad explains, “Listen, people. I have finally solved the problems of morality. I have discovered the most accurate moral theory possible, and according to this moral theory, it was morally obligatory that I rape the young girl. The theory is so complex that I could never make your average human minds understand it, but you’ve got to trust me! After all, aren’t I the smartest man on earth? Haven’t I cured cancer, solved the toughest problems in math, solves world conflict, and discovered the Theory of Everything? You’ve got to trust me – my raping the young girl was for the best. I can’t explain why to you, because the correct moral theory is beyond your comprehension. But who are you to question me? You know your minds are vastly inferior to my own. You should trust that I know what I’m doing. Raping that girl was for the best.”

Most people are persuaded by Brad’s appeal, and accept that raping the young girl probably was for the best, though they will never understand why. These people come to be known as Bradists.

A minority of people remain unconvinced by Brad’s appeal. They think raping the young girl was morally wrong. They propose various moral theories they think are plausible, and show that each of them demonstrates that raping the young girl was morally wrong. These people come to be known as anti-Bradists.

Brad goes on to rape 65 pre-teen girls in California, which he again claims is for the best. The gap between the Bradists and the anti-Bradists grows deeper, the Bradists still defending Brad’s actions, the anti-Bradists protesting even more loudly that rape is wrong, no matter what Brad says.

In his 17th year, Brad builds a machine capable of causing volcanos to erupt. Without warning anyone, Brad uses it on the Yellowstone Caldera, the largest supervolcano on the North American continent. The eruption is the largest volcanic eruption in recorded history. Within days, millions die as a result of the eruption. The ash surrounds the globe and causes deadly environmental irregularities all around the world.

The Bradists remain faithful, convinced that Brad knows what is best even if they can’t begin to comprehend how the eruption was morally good. Anti-Bradists protest in disbelief at their fellow humans who defend Brad in spite of his mass killing. But the Bradists repeat, “Who are you to judge Brad? Are you as smart as he is? Can you prove he is incorrect?”

What do you think?

This is your way of trying to judge God. This must mean that you can answer every question God asked Job. Now, I suggest that you go to God and accuse Him yourself and see what He has to say in His defense. You will never find an answer that satisfies you on this, or any other board. Go to the source and speak to Him personally.

[Guest yod]

This is the greek spirit. Man is the center of knowledge and sits in judgment of God.

It has been inseparable from the "christian philosophy" of theologians for centuries as evidenced by the fact we observe times and seasons of the greco-world, while ignoring God's appointed times. I mean, "we" know better than He what is relevant to us, right? Until we cut this off at the root, there will always be these tares growing among the wheat.

At this point nothing short of Yeshua coming down from heaven is going to change it.(see Zechariah 14)

[Guest yod]

I must confess that I don't see why creating the universe automatically means that God is unquestionably moral and good. Can you elaborate?

He knows the beginning and the end and is therefore the only One capable of making a judgment of context and relevance when it comes to distinctions of righteousness vs wickedness.

The mind of Christ, according to the Word, is to prefer others over oneself and this is how God operates. It is said that "God is love" but that love is not the same "love" which the world offers. His love is ALWAYS completely selfless and given, whereas the "love" offered in the greco-humanist world is based on selfish concerns mostly. We "take" what we need from someone else primarily.

In your flawed analogy, Brad is doing things to protect (or create) life but suddenly violates this uber-high principle with the destruction of life and innocence by selfish indulgence of a rape. This is clearly a contradiction of sin imposing itself on an otherwise "godly" existence.

[Valoran]

He knows the beginning and the end and is therefore the only One capable of making a judgment of context and relevance when it comes to distinctions of righteousness vs wickedness.

The mind of Christ, according to the Word, is to prefer others over oneself and this is how God operates. It is said that "God is love" but that love is not the same "love" which the world offers. His love is ALWAYS completely selfless and given, whereas the "love" offered in the greco-humanist world is based on selfish concerns mostly. We "take" what we need from someone else primarily.

In your flawed analogy, Brad is doing things to protect (or create) life but suddenly violates this uber-high principle with the destruction of life and innocence by selfish indulgence of a rape. This is clearly a contradiction of sin imposing itself on an otherwise "godly" existence.

yod, you're clearly intelligent enough to see that Brad's excuse of "I know the theory of morality inside out, you're not allowed to question me!" is a load of tripe, yet curiously you become blind to it when "Brad" is swapped out and replaced with "God". What gives?