The Trinity, free of encumbrances

[JohnD]

The concept of the Trinity is not difficult to comprehend. That is, once the mistaken ideas and presuppositions are removed.

If we think of the math involved with the Trinity the way we do with other compound unities (like a family, for example) most of the objections to the Trinity are easily explained. You can simply replace the word "God" for the word "family" in these objections and see where the fallacy comes from.

How can one God be three persons?

How can one family be three persons?

Many / most objections are simply due to using the wrong math.

Other objections stem from traditional misidentification of the person (or individual) in the Godhead. For example, most traditions hold that God the Father is the primary individual in the Old Testament. He is not. He existed. He was the ultimate authority then as now. But he had little or no interaction with the creation. Jesus (preincarnate) did.

We become victims of our own preconceptions, presuppositions, and dogmas based on partial information in the progression of God's revelation to humanity. Man had no idea about most things, and God had to walk humanity through all the baby steps to the understanding of all things ultimate.

John 5:37 (KJV)

37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Matthew 11:27 (KJV)

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Most presume they have knowledge of the Father from the Old Testament scriptures, but little is mentioned about him there. The New Testament is what speaks mostly about the Father of Jesus... who incidentally is our Father but only by adoption. Our Father is the preincarnate Jesus.

John 1:1-3 (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 1:13-16 (KJV)

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Isaiah 44:24 (KJV)

24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Jesus is not the Heavenly Father:

John 1:14 (KJV)

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The only thing created by God the Heavenly Father was the body of the incarnation of God the Word. If this were not so then it would be untrue to say Jesus is the ONLY begotten of the Father. For there are many passages referring to the sons of God.

Luke 3:38 (KJV)

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Adam was the son of God the Word. Not God the Father of Jesus.

This is Trinitarian doctrine. It is a biblical dispelling of the myths and traditions that have clouded the doctrine and made it so difficult to understand or defend. It would almost be easier in one sense to start out with a chart with three columns and at the head of each the title | God individual "A" | God individual "B" | God individual "C" | and then to attribute to each their individual titles, names, accomplishments etc.

God individual "B" (Jesus preincarnate) created all things in the beginning by himself.

God individual "A" (the Heavenly Father) later created the body of the Son.

God individual "C" (the Holy Spirit) inspired the prophets both writing and non-writing (so he authored the Bible).

The uniqueness of each supports the Trinity doctrine. And in fact they go a long way to establish the validity of the doctrine when things like the terms we use to describe each are quite interchangeable.

Each individual is Spirit. Each individual is Holy. Each could be referred to as Holy Spirit. But each are not THE Holy Spirit (as we have traditionally called him). If you think about it, it would be like naming one of us "breathing human being." Holy Spirit is more descriptive than a name like Larry or George.

Each individual is a father. But each are not THE Father. Individual "A" is THE Father (of Jesus). Individual "B" is the Father of creation. Individual "C" is the Father of revelation of truth, of God, of the plan of salvation, of the Savior.

It is these interchangeable terms that people get off track by. Or they try to challenge the doctrine of the Trinity with. But the texts which show the coexistence of each and the uniqueness of each that validates the doctrine of the Trinity...

[Guest]

Most presume they have knowledge of the Father from the Old Testament scriptures, but little is mentioned about him there. coexistence of each and the uniqueness of each that validates the doctrine of the Trinity...

Well Beloved

In The First Testament Of Jesus

We See God (Father, Son And Holy Ghost)

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Genesis 1:1-2

God (Father, Son)

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

God (Father, Son)

He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:4-7

God (Son)

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5

God (Holy Ghost)

Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. Zechariah 4:6

God (Son)

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32

And God (Son)

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

And On And On But My Grandson Comes Early And My Darling Wife Says This Old Man Must Sleep

So Dear Brother I Must Leave You

And Beloved Worthy

With

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

And I Am So Blessed To Know You

And To Fellowship With You

Over The Bread

Of Life

~

Bless His Holy Name

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Botz]

I have always thought of the doctrine of the Trinity an attempt by man to define the Indefinable as a safe-guard against heretical strands of teaching that were beginning to infiltrate the Church. By the very nature of its inception (ie man's atempt) the doctrine of the Trinity is imperfect, and unfortumately many people over the years have partially shifted their allegiance from the designated revealed terms that describe G-d, to the consolidated expression of Him as an entity called the Trinity....which I see as a divisive element replacing YHVH, especially within Jewish understanding.

As far as I am aware, many of those at the forefront of promoting this formula at the Council of Nicea under the combined authority of Constantine and Sylvester 1 (Bishop of Rome/Pope) were also those beginning to lift Mary to a place of worship and adoration, endorsing praying to the departed Saints and gave allegiance to the Bishop of Rome....(approx 300 Bishops/Overseers were thought to be in attendance....from all around the Middle-East, but especially Greece)

I personally don't subscribe to a formula that encapsulates G-d , although I recognize in that formula certain elements touched on, hinted at and shrouded in mystery through the teachings of Scripture. I don't really disagree with anything it contains, and yet I prefer the way Jesus describes the inter-relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost especially in chapters 14-16 of John....where we can see the unity in the expressed nature of G-d and still be awed by something of the mystery of G-d that is beyond the comprehension of mortal minds, but established in us by personal revelation of the Spirit.

15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

[nebula]

Thank-you, Botz!

I've been thinking along a similar line, though I had no idea how to express it. (At least with regards to the first paragraph.)

The other paragraphs were enlightening.

[other one]

I think it would be a lot easier to understand if we really understood how the Father and Jesus were connected spiritually. I think we get a small taste of it as the Holy Spirit enters us and communes with us, but the kind of constant communication that Jesus and the Father had seems to me to be a bit over our heads at this time to really comprehend.

BTW I do agree with the OP that Jesus in his pre-incarnate position as being God was the God that Moses and the others knew..

[~candice~]

I also believe that the God Moses saw was pre incarnate Jesus (since no one has seen the Father), but doesn't logic then dictate that Jesus is NOT the Father?

Botz, very well written! There is not much I see wrong with the classical representation of the trinity, but it really doesn't delve much into the mystery and depth of the hypostatic union.

[JohnD]

I also believe that the God Moses saw was pre incarnate Jesus (since no one has seen the Father), but doesn't logic then dictate that Jesus is NOT the Father?

Botz, very well written! There is not much I see wrong with the classical representation of the trinity, but it really doesn't delve much into the mystery and depth of the hypostatic union.

Jesus is not "the Heavenly Father." But He is a Father. He is the Creator of all things created in the beginning.

John 1:1-3 (NASB95)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Colossians 1:16 (NASB95)

16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities

[JohnD]

It's almost easier to chart this in columns into each you place the individual characteristics, offices, accomplishments...

God individual "A" | God individual "B" | God individual "C"

Heavenly Father | Father of Creation | Writer of Bible

of Incarnate Son | Incarnate Son | Holy Spirit

Etc.

[Ddavid from NC]

The concept of the Trinity is not difficult to comprehend. That is, once the mistaken ideas and presuppositions are removed.

Wow....what will follow now is 150 post that will cloud the issue.....lol

[shekinah66]

I am so confused still over this whole issue regarding the Trinity *sigh*