Do Christians and Jews worship the same God?

[other one]

the israelites worshiped God, the Father. i hope each of us here also worship God the Father. if we worship only Jesus and don't worship our Father, then we're missing something vitally important, don't ya think?

and we don't pray to Jesus, we pray to the Father THROUGH Jesus... in the NAME of Jesus. That is why the Father hears our prayers, because Jesus is our intercessor. the jews, unfortunately, have not been reconciled to the Father through Jesus Christ. it's still the same Father.

No they didn't worship the Father, many people saw the God of Israel during the days of Moses, and Jesus told us that no one has ever seen the Father...... That no one would even include Adam and Eve.

It was Jesus they saw and worshiped when he was in the form of God.

[Guest LadyC]

i just don't agree with that. they called Him God. they didn't call Him Jesus. and throughout the OT, God referred to Himself as God. the average israelite never saw "God", whether it was Jesus in the form of God or whatever. moses saw the burning bush. i think aaron did too, if i recall correctly. that was God. everyone else saw nothing more than smoke. they certainly heard His voice, but they didn't see with their eyes. they worshipped God, they looked for the coming of the Messiah.

[~candice~]

i just don't agree with that. they called Him God. they didn't call Him Jesus. and throughout the OT, God referred to Himself as God. the average israelite never saw "God", whether it was Jesus in the form of God or whatever. moses saw the burning bush. i think aaron did too, if i recall correctly. that was God. everyone else saw nothing more than smoke. they certainly heard His voice, but they didn't see with their eyes. they worshipped God, they looked for the coming of the Messiah.

Who do you think the types in the OT depict, the Father or the Son? I believe it depicts the Son, Jesus. This is the God that they glimpsed through their feast, sacrifices, festivals, laws, etc etc. They saw in part then and sadly still see in part now. But they are looking at the same God.

[Smalcald]

I wish that were true. From what I can tell and I am open to being wrong on this totally; but the conception that Jews who practice Judaism today have of the Messiah is nothing like the Christ revealed in the New Testament. He seems to be a human political leader and certainly not God.

OK, Smalcald, your response betrays a glaring error.

Your post shows that you believe in the Gentile Christ and not the Jewish Messiah.

You may think it meaningless, but actually it is not. That change of terminology completely alters the perspective.

The Messiah that the Jews of today are looking for is the same Messiah that the Jews were looking for when Jesus walked the Earth. That is "Messiah Son of David" (aka the Conquering King). Hebrew Scriptures are full of prophecies of Messiah Son of David. However, there are also prophecies of "Messiah Son of Joseph" (aka the Suffering Servant). There has always been debate among the Jews as to whether or not these two Messiahs are two different men or the same man. But by the time Jesus came to earth, the people were so longing for Messiah who would drive out the Romans that this is the one they were looking for. For the Jews who did not believe in Jesus, this longing has never changed. And, unfortunately, due to Christian persecution over the centuries, the unbelieving Jews have squelched the teaching of Messiah Ben Joseph. They've become so antagonistic against the Christian Jesus - because the Christian Jesus so hates them - that Isaiah 53 is even no longer taught in Synagogue.

Thus when I see you mentioning "their Messiah" versus "the Christ," this to me sends up a red flag.

The Messiah they are looking for is Scriptural. And Messiah Son of David will come. They just missed that He came as Messiah Ben Joseph first.

The Messiah that those who practice modern Judaism today are waiting for has nothing to do with the True God and Savior as revealed in the Holy Bible. Don't you think instead of putting words in their mouth you should check out what Judaism actually believes?

They believe from what I can tell at least what they state; is that the person they are waiting for is NOT divine, is FULLY human, a political leader that will lead Israel. It is totally of the world. He will not forgive sins nor will not save souls. I hope I sent up a BIG red flag as Judaism today rejects the Messiah of Holy Scripture and I want nothing to do with that belief. It is not simply a matter of missing the boat, the boat they are currently waiting for is not the Messiah, the Christ of the Holy Bible.

So to me this is the danger is that this obsession with Judaism will end up leading people away from the True Lord and Savior who is God in every way. This God who is Jesus Christ is much different than the God the people practicing Judaism today are worshiping. Now I have no problem saying that they just don't know what they are doing, but you could say that about anyone, Mormons, JW's, Muslims you could simply say hey they are all praying to the same God because there is only one God; the Father Son and Holy Spirit, they just don' know that yet. But it seems strange to do that.

Now you could say that Judaism today is non-scriptural; a false religion. But that God will always complete the promises He has made to His Chosen people, I will totally agree with that. Does that mean that those who practice Judaism pray to the same God as we do? Maybe it does not matter as long as we are clear about who God really is as revealed in Holy Scripture.

[other one]

i just don't agree with that. they called Him God. they didn't call Him Jesus. and throughout the OT, God referred to Himself as God. the average israelite never saw "God", whether it was Jesus in the form of God or whatever. moses saw the burning bush. i think aaron did too, if i recall correctly. that was God. everyone else saw nothing more than smoke. they certainly heard His voice, but they didn't see with their eyes. they worshipped God, they looked for the coming of the Messiah.

QUOTE

Ex 24:9-11 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

KJV

Whatever you want to call him, they saw the God of Israel and Jesus says no one has ever seen the Father...

Gen 32:30

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

KJV

If we are going to take the Bible at it's word, we have to know that the Father is not what Moses and Jacob saw..... and they saw the God of Israel. It was not the Father.

Since we have only three to choose from, and we are told by Jesus himself it was not the Father, that leaves Jesus and the Holy Spirit as the only two entities we would label as God, and the Holy Spirit doesn't really fit the description, so it pretty much must be Jesus in his form as God before he became flesh.

I might add to this that unless they accept him in the flesh as the living sacrifice for our sins they can not be a part of the new covenant and be with him for eternity.

but as I understand it someone just wanted to know if we pray to the same God as they and I still say that yes they do pray to the same God but just don't know it.

BTW I don't see where the first covenant with the Israelites get them anything on the spiritual level pertaining to eternal salvation. I think nothing has changed with the first covenant, and to attain salvation one must accept Jesus in the Flesh and enter a relationship with him in the second covenant.

LadyC, I don't think we're really disagreeing, I'm just stopping with the origional question of who they are praying to and worshiping. They had a different relationship with him with different promices for different requirements.

[Matthitjah]

i just don't agree with that. they called Him God. they didn't call Him Jesus. and throughout the OT, God referred to Himself as God. the average israelite never saw "God", whether it was Jesus in the form of God or whatever. moses saw the burning bush. i think aaron did too, if i recall correctly. that was God. everyone else saw nothing more than smoke. they certainly heard His voice, but they didn't see with their eyes. they worshipped God, they looked for the coming of the Messiah.

QUOTE

Ex 24:9-11 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

KJV

Whatever you want to call him, they saw the God of Israel and Jesus says no one has ever seen the Father...

Gen 32:30

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

KJV

If we are going to take the Bible at it's word, we have to know that the Father is not what Moses and Jacob saw..... and they saw the God of Israel. It was not the Father.

Since we have only three to choose from, and we are told by Jesus himself it was not the Father, that leaves Jesus and the Holy Spirit as the only two entities we would label as God, and the Holy Spirit doesn't really fit the description, so it pretty much must be Jesus in his form as God before he became flesh.

I might add to this that unless they accept him in the flesh as the living sacrifice for our sins they can not be a part of the new covenant and be with him for eternity.

but as I understand it someone just wanted to know if we pray to the same God as they and I still say that yes they do pray to the same God but just don't know it.

BTW I don't see where the first covenant with the Israelites get them anything on the spiritual level pertaining to eternal salvation. I think nothing has changed with the first covenant, and to attain salvation one must accept Jesus in the Flesh and enter a relationship with him in the second covenant.

LadyC, I don't think we're really disagreeing, I'm just stopping with the origional question of who they are praying to and worshiping. They had a different relationship with him with different promices for different requirements.

Bless you Sam,

Here's my understanding of the Covenant you speak of;

Ga 3:6

[other one]

Bless you Sam,

Here's my understanding of the Covenant you speak of;

Ga 3:6

[Matthitjah]

The first covenant was the Adamic covenant. IMO, the covenants build one upon another, but all have the same foundation. Faith in the Word of God.

[nebula]

Question you guys -

When Jesus prayed the traditional Jewish prayers, who was He praying to?

[nebula]

The Messiah that those who practice modern Judaism today are waiting for has nothing to do with the True God and Savior as revealed in the Holy Bible. Don't you think instead of putting words in their mouth you should check out what Judaism actually believes?

They believe from what I can tell at least what they state; is that the person they are waiting for is NOT divine, is FULLY human, a political leader that will lead Israel. It is totally of the world. He will not forgive sins nor will not save souls.

Messiah Son of David is not the forgiver of sins, the savior of souls. He is the Conquering King that leads Israel into triumph.

This is what the Jews were looking for when Jesus came. That is why none of his disciples understood his capture and death, even though He told them point blank this would happen.

Their beliefs on the Messiah are founded in Scripture - the Old Testament is Scripture, remember? - they just have an incorrect interpretation and understanding of these prophecies.

I hope I sent up a BIG red flag as Judaism today rejects the Messiah of Holy Scripture and I want nothing to do with that belief. It is not simply a matter of missing the boat, the boat they are currently waiting for is not the Messiah, the Christ of the Holy Bible.

I know full well that they reject the Messiah as revealed in the New Testament. What your argument fails to show is a respect for the Old Testament as being just as valid as the New Testament.

The Old Testament is all the original disciples had, and they did not understand with Jesus in their midst and telling them directly what His mission and purpose was. So how can you expect the Jews of today to understand, especially after centuries of a non-Jewish Christ as portrayed by the Church?

How do you suppose they can ever see the Church's Christ as their Messiah? The image of Christ we give them has no appearance of being Jewish, has no respect for Torah and Nevi'im (the Prophets), hates the Jews, and even has a Gentile name/title ("Christ").

So to me this is the danger is that this obsession with Judaism will end up leading people away from the True Lord and Savior who is God in every way.

No one is "obsessing with Judaism." You keep making this false assumption that we are claiming salvation in any way other than through faith in Jesus. This is not what we are advocating nor claiming at all. This is an assumption you are making on account of your theology.

Consider - before Jesus was born, who was the "Adonai" the Jews prayed to? While Jesus walked the Earth, who was the "Adonai" the Jews prayed to? After Jesus rose again, who was the "Adonai" the Jews prayed to?

This God who is Jesus Christ is much different than the God the people practicing Judaism today are worshiping. Now I have no problem saying that they just don't know what they are doing, but you could say that about anyone, Mormons, JW's, Muslims you could simply say hey they are all praying to the same God because there is only one God; the Father Son and Holy Spirit, they just don' know that yet. But it seems strange to do that.

What makes Jews different from Muslims is that the Jews pray the Holy Scriptures - the Old Testament portions, but they are still Holy Scriptures, Holy Bible. Muslims pray the Koran. Muslims do not pray to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Muslims do not pray to YHWH, Adonai.

JW's, Mormons, and Muslims all base their religion on "revelation" by a "prophet" which is greater than the Holy Scriptures. Jews still found their religion on the Holy Scriptures.

Yes, the Jewish religion of today is altered from Scripture as a result of having lost the Temple, but the basis never changed. Their prayers never changed.

Now you could say that Judaism today is non-scriptural; a false religion. But that God will always complete the promises He has made to His Chosen people, I will totally agree with that. Does that mean that those who practice Judaism pray to the same God as we do? Maybe it does not matter as long as we are clear about who God really is as revealed in Holy Scripture.

I think of it this way. Jesus said many will call Him, "Lord, Lord," to whom He will say, "I never knew you." These are Christians (for who else who refer to Him that way - the double "Lord" indicates familiarity). So were these Christians praying to the true God throughout their Christian walk?