Eternal Security

[JohnD]

About walking away...

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (KJV)

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 John 2:19 (KJV)

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

There is is. Eternal security. Can't be taken from God's hand. Can't walk away. And those who do walk away prove by their ability to walk away that they were never saved in the first place.

Edited May 16, 2011 by JohnDB

[JohnD]

It's not that people make scripture say what they wish. It's because it's what scripture says. You can use context arguments to undo statements in certain settings... provided there is no prophetic element to the writing you are discussing.

The Bible is mostly about prophecy.

Deuteronomy 29:29 (KJV)

29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Proverbs 25:2 (KJV)

2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Isaiah 28:10-13 (KJV)

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

1 Corinthians 13:2 (KJV)

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Given the weight of:

"About walking away...

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (KJV)

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 John 2:19 (KJV)

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

There is is. Eternal security. Can't be taken from God's hand. Can't walk away. And those who do walk away prove by their ability to walk away that they were never saved in the first place. "

We can comfortably interpret Jeremiah 32:40 to mean the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is one we will not walk away from.

Edited May 16, 2011 by JohnDB

[OneLight]

The ones of Heb. 6:1-6 were not Born Again Christians one says??? How more Born Again can one be, than to BE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST!

And is this an undenominational bunch (site) or not???

--Elijah

Yes, it is nondenominational. You don't have to be in a denomination to believe that the shed blood of Christ on the cross was sufficient enough to cover all of the sins of man, past, present and future; and to believe that when a person accepts His Sacrifice and is born again, not just a partaker of the Holy Spirit but consumed by the Holy Spirit, that such a human could ever choose to walk away from Jesus Christ. It just doesn't happen! "No created thing" can take us away. We are all created things, are we not?

The only people who would (or could) ever turn their backs on Christ, never had His Spirit within them. They may have thought they had, just as the Pharisees and Sadducee believed that they were the religious elite of their time. Yet Christ called them "hypocrites!" That's all they were was religious, they were out for themselves and what they could get from man while believing in a different god than the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Such is the plight of the "Church" today. And that's God's Truth. Nondenominational, simple Truth that many people choose to twist and turn in order to make it not about Christ, but about themselves, as if they have the power to change the Will of God. I can tell you that I am NOT one of those. And I don't sin freely or willfully, as many seem to think about people who fully trust in the saving power of the Lord, do. Sure, I sin, I may loose some rewards in heaven when I get there, but God will never revoke my Justification through the cleansing Blood of The Lamb. He has promised. And our God does what He says He will do. I realize that no amount of words or scripture will change the mind of a person who chooses to believe in the rubbish of loosing one's salvation, or giving it back if you choose to think of it like that; I also realize that the only thing I ever needed to do was to accept what God, as Christ, did on that Cross and by rising on the third was enough to pay for my sins in order to be saved. And there is nothing else required, and nothing any one can ever say or do that will change my mind that what I have said is not true and sufficient. And I have the Lord's Peace. May you have it also.

Yes, it can happen. We may not understand why, but unless you become either a computer or a puppet, you still have a free will. When you use scripture , as you did above (in bold), be sure to use it correctly. The part you quoted states "nor any other created thing". You forgot the "any other", which does shine a different light.

You also neglect to consider the very young in Christ who are not solid in their relationship, have experienced the "consumption" of His Spirit, or even had time to be able to know the truth from a lie, especially when it is as deceitful as the lies of Satan can be. These are saved as much as an elder, but more apt to turn from the truth.

The Sadducee and Pharisees never had His Spirit, as you correctly state. Yet, when we do read about the "falling away" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, we read "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." Notice the comma and the word and, which divided the two as two separate incidents. One may influence the other, but remember, the anti-Christ is already at work. Many in the church are already falling away by the false teachers and false prophets of today. They willfully are following a lie, turning from the truth. There will come a time when the Holy Spirit convicts them of the lie they are following, yet they will harden their heart to His conviction.

To say that it will never happen is a blanket statement then never is correct in any context.

[OneLight]

About walking away...

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (KJV)

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 John 2:19 (KJV)

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

There is is. Eternal security. Can't be taken from God's hand. Can't walk away. And those who do walk away prove by their ability to walk away that they were never saved in the first place.

All this tells us is that we belong to Him, bought by His death. Tell me this, can you sin if you choose to? If you say yes, then you just proved that man is still capable of turning from God if he so chooses.

[OneLight]

It's not that people make scripture say what they wish. It's because it's what scripture says. You can use context arguments to undo statements in certain settings... provided there is no prophetic element to the writing you are discussing.

The Bible is mostly about prophecy.

The bible contains about 27% prophecy, which is not even close to half.

Deuteronomy 29:29 (KJV)

29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Proverbs 25:2 (KJV)

2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Isaiah 28:10-13 (KJV)

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

1 Corinthians 13:2 (KJV)

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Given the weight of:

"About walking away...

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (KJV)

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 John 2:19 (KJV)

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

There is is. Eternal security. Can't be taken from God's hand. Can't walk away. And those who do walk away prove by their ability to walk away that they were never saved in the first place. "

We can comfortably interpret Jeremiah 32:40 to mean the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is one we will not walk away from.

The promise from God is everlasting and is for Israel and Judah only. Gentiles do not have the right to claim what was not spoken to the gentiles.

[enoob57]

First, I never said I maintain my own salvation, brother. You are reading something into my words that I never said. I could no more maintain my own salvation then save myself. I hope my words below better explains my belief.

It is possibly a flawed logic in me but let us speak in peace you and I...

for my reasoning logic is if you stay or go by your will-> isn't it your will which is keeping you?

Here is where I am in this regard: God has already told me that I cannot do anything apart from Him:

Jn 15:5 as to bearing fruit...

John 5:19 as to will... for in the garden it was His will given in submission to The Fathers Will.

For (Christ's will begged The Father for another way)

Matt 26:39

39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father,

if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless,

not as I will

, but as You will

."

NKJV

John 9:33 as to miracles

2 Cor 13:8 as to truth begets truth

Phil 4:13 as to Spiritual strengths provided

1 Cor 10:12

12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

NKJV

Therefore I commit that which is more precious to me than me to Him that it may be kept by His promise that nothing

shall take that preciousness out of His Hand not even me-> for whatever is not of God in me I want rid of anyway...

I am in Love with Jesus Christ my Lord and I would be identical to Him except the witness of truth is I am not! ->YET

I know that when I die His Life shall be my covering and under that covering I shall have debt, love and commitment

to Him that the eternities shall not diminish! I shall look upon His Person and become like Him but always in the knowledge

of How it is that I came to be so that my glorying in Him is pure and undefiled truth that has come down from The Father...

All these verses you provided point at someone wanting to remain, do they not? YES Allow me to ask this, did Jesus force you to believe and accept His salvation?

The fact that I was in darkness and then light came into me had to be of God! (election, predestination) and no I don't know how this works!

OneLight at age twelve I believed in Him and His Word... which He said(Jesus Christ): if I would believe that He was God, who made me, and that He came in flesh to die for my sins and

God the Father raised Him to be in His Right Hand and I had the witness of what was done to Him at the Cross ->I saw the Love of God<- and believed...

The next 40 years if I were to list all that happened I don't believe anyone would believe the list plus it is filled with shame!!!!!!!

Saying all that for this-> my Life in Him was kept by Him there is no other explanation for I have witnessed many miracles from His Hand that spared my

life in as much, at the time, it deserved not the sparing but yet spared... I am a living witness of His Keeping for I cannot speak other than what is truth...

for I know lies in their empty lifeless substance of void and lacking life and God is not in them... of all the eternal commodities of Our Lord's Pleasure the lies

contain nothing of these eternities... No one who has God living in them can return to those lies for the awareness of what I have spoken of is God's Light of Life...

If He did not, then why would He force someone to remain who no longer wants to believe?

If you can show me this person in Scripture than I will believe they are here now among us!

That is why it is hard for people to accept that there are verses that state that if someone turns, he can not come back. They refuse to accept that people can change their mind. Lets look again at Hebrews 6:4-6 ...

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

For those who believe nobody can turn from God and give up their salvation, this verse, to them, means they never were saved in the first place. I disagree. The words themselves do not support their understanding. What is being enlightened, or tasting the heavenly gift, of become partakers of the Holy Spirit, or tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come if it is not, in fact, believing Christ through salvation? How can anyone who refuses Christ Jesus partake in the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit will try and convict them of their sins, but this is not partaking of Him.

I believe this that the statement from God's Spirit and the man called to write Hebrews made the context to be understood

"since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God" Impossible... For God's Word cannot be undone or made to be false

1 Peter 3:18-22

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but

made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when

once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls,

were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but

the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the

right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

NKJV

Heb 9:23-28

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things

themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the

true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest

enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the

world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for

men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for

Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

NKJV

So in view of the thought concept in these above statements of God's Word and the impossibility to bring Him into open shame for He is

on The Hand of The Father and all things are put into subjection to Him and the Glory He had before with The Father is now again The Glory

He has now.... we may understand this from the verses in question:

For it is impossible what is impossible?} for those who were once enlightened^?, and have tasted the heavenly gift^?, and have become partakers

of the Holy Spirit^?, and have tasted the good word of God^? and the powers of the age to come^?, Impossible}if they fall away, Impossible}to renew

them again to repentance, Impossible}since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, Impossible}and put Him to an open shame.

This is the Theological answer for me in this

Acts 15:24-25

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and

keep the law" to whom we gave no such commandment

NKJV

1 John 2:18-25

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Eph 1:13-14

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also,

having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance

until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

NKJV

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Let Truth Abide in You

24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us eternal life.

NKJV

As I had mentioned before, and still believe, there is no way anyone can be removed from salvation if they choose to stay. Jesus is more then capable to keep them. At the same time, God does not force us to accept salvation, nor will He force us to remain. Let's look at Rom 8:37-39 ...

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels

nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate

us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I have read these verses more then a thousand times, looking for the word "you", or a hint of it, but never can find it. These verses point to everything else except yourself. It is far more comfortable, but dangerous, to believe that we can never change our minds toward Christ, but I need to ask again, does God force people to accept anything? If so, there is no free will.

The we is all the u lambs in Christ... created thing is all that God has brought into existence for only He is I AM THAT I AM...

Today, the body is full of fence sitters. We see it everywhere and read how those who once were solid in Christ are now changing their doctrine to include sin, a lie. We are also told that there will be a falling away. Ask yourself this, if they were never His in the first place, what are they falling away from?

In Rom 1 Creation was formed from His Son The Living Word and that witness is enough to send rejecting men of that witness to hell -and- all men have been given this witness! Hence they are falling away from creations witness for according to John and the Writer of Hebrews they cannot be of us or they would remain with us...Born again to be God filled people The Bride...

Again, though I can not comprehend why someone would turn from the salvation they received in Christ, I do not neglect the fact that they can if they so choose to. I believe 100% in free will, for God has always given us a choice. To say that we have free will to accept, but not to deny, is a contradiction in itself. Either we have complete free will or we have no free will.

In sin I became a slave to sin however in Christ I have been set free for He promised me this

John 8:31-36

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." 33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, 'You will be made free'?" 34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

NKJV

freewill is better seen as choice without compromise unbounded by all that is defined now in the eternal of nothing impossible with The Father

and the we being evil know how to give good gifts to our children how much more Him!!! Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Those who accept Jesus, walk and grow in Christ, struggle through the hardest of tests and come out victoriously, desiring to remain, there is nothing that can remove them from salvation. For me to believe this, I also have to accept that if someone, at a point in time, who wishes to give it all up, for whatever reason they have, will not be forced to remain. I have always said this and I will echo it again, God does not make puppets. He made humans and imparted in them free will.

The reason you see only puppets is you have only allowed your beginning to be in your own awareness! Which is not the reality within God's Word of teaching

Eph 1:4-6

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise

of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

NKJV

We were before we were aware of we... the significance of this is to know that God is unbounded eternal and we are there in Him before corporeal when only Spirit. Spiritual ability to die to self and and allow His Life within us as to live out of us is to bring into fullness of being that person from whom He did foreknow

1 John 3:2-3

2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed,

we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

NKJV

I hope this better explains what I believe.

In His Love,

Alan

I have added my heart to that of yours that we may understand one another as we journey to Our Lord Jesus Christ... Thank you Alan I apologize for this length! but I am a wind bag for it is with intensity of purpose to explain as to why I view This differently than you... Love Steven

[OneLight]

Steve, I will reply, but it may take a little while. I will try to cut it down some without losing the meaning.

God Bless,

Alan

[Botz]

The whole thrust of these opening verses in Hebrews 6 are a continuation from the previous chapter about the lack of depth and maturity in many Believers, and if some 'fall away' and allow briars and thorns in place of fruit, their works are ultimately going to be consumed by fire. These people cannot be regenerated by the Holy Ghost as it is evident they have already demonstrated they are born again....therefore it is impossible for them to be born again....again.

In the context of the people that Paul is addressing, he is saying that he expects better things from them....things that are a natural by-product of salvation, for it is evident that amongst them are those that are immature and have produced some rubbish as a result of turning away from the truth....just as amongst us some have focused on the flesh and produced the fruit of the flesh...they are not condemned to perdition, but are encouraged to repent from 'dead works' and the way these works are conceived...and to go on to maturity.

All of us will have produced 'dead works' at various times in our lives...more often than not it is because we 'fell away' from following Jesus for a moment or for a season....we don't have to be 'born again...again'....we need to repent and get back on track...indeed it is impossible to undergo 'new birth' more than once as we do not weave in and out of our salvation according to our own merits.

9 But beloved we are persuaded better things of you and things that accompany salvation...

[Guest shiloh357]

Grace IS the expectation of holy living. The Bible says so:

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Titus 2:11-14)

Grace teaches to be holy and to reject ungodliness in view of Christ's return. So if you disagree with me, you also disagree with Scripture, buddy.

I did not say we pay for grace with holy living or earn grace. I said that holy living is the product of grace. Please try to read what I say instead of assigning things to me that I did not say.

As for falling away, that refers to apostascy and an apostate is not an ex-Christian. An apostate is a person who acquieses to the truth but denies it anyway. They know the truth but walk away from it. They would not repent anyway.

If a Christian stumbles and sins, of course they can be forgiven and fellowship with the Lord is restored.

The word 'fall away' in Hebrews 6:6 isn't the same word as 'falling away' in 2 Thes. 2.

Apostasy isn't mentioned in Hebrews 6:6. Fall away in Hebrews 6 is parapipto...not apostasy.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3895&t=KJV

This verse and this word (parapipto) is probably one reason why the experts and those of you who believe them, mis-interpret these passages and esp. the word apostasy. Did they or 'you' do a word study on it?

I'm amazed how many people accept and attribute this falling away (apostasy) to the church when 2 Thes. 2 clearly indicates it has something to do with the man of sin.

Yes, that point was made back in post # 11. Thank you for confirming it.

[Guest shiloh357]

Grace IS the expectation of holy living. The Bible says so:

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Titus 2:11-14)

Grace teaches to be holy and to reject ungodliness in view of Christ's return. So if you disagree with me, you also disagree with Scripture, buddy.

I did not say we pay for grace with holy living or earn grace. I said that holy living is the product of grace. Please try to read what I say instead of assigning things to me that I did not say.

As for falling away, that refers to apostascy and an apostate is not an ex-Christian. An apostate is a person who acquieses to the truth but denies it anyway. They know the truth but walk away from it. They would not repent anyway.

If a Christian stumbles and sins, of course they can be forgiven and fellowship with the Lord is restored.

The word 'fall away' in Hebrews 6:6 isn't the same word as 'falling away' in 2 Thes. 2.

Apostasy isn't mentioned in Hebrews 6:6. Fall away in Hebrews 6 is parapipto...not apostasy.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3895&t=KJV

This verse and this word (parapipto) is probably one reason why the experts and those of you who believe them, mis-interpret these passages and esp. the word apostasy. Did they or 'you' do a word study on it?

I'm amazed how many people accept and attribute this falling away (apostasy) to the church when 2 Thes. 2 clearly indicates it has something to do with the man of sin.

Some take pleasure in doing word searches. They allow one to see the original structure of a statement by understanding the true meaning of the words being used. You are correct in stating that the meaning of "fall away" in the verse comes from parapipto, but digging into the meaning of this word I have found it to mean: To fall aside or away, err, stray,lapse. Used only in Hebrews 6:6, denoting a falling away, an abandonment, a deliberate act of sin. (The Complete Word Study Dictionary)

Spiros Zodihates is mistaken. The idea of abandonmnet or "falling away" does not fit the context, as the author of Hebrews is not accusing them of that. He is accusing them of stagnation and spiritual immaturity. The way a word is used is more important than its lexical definition. The primary use of parpipto and the only definition that fits how the word is being used is to fall aside, not things like fall away or abandonment. It may be used that way in other verses and in other contexts, but it not used that way here.