Eternal Security

[other one]

Can a person loose his salvation by turning his back on Jesus after accepting him and experiencing a walk with him......... I have no idea, nor do I intend to ever find out....

[enoob57]

[Have you ever asked yourself if when you were deep in sin, which caused your shame, that if you had died in your sin, where would you go? I have thought about this a lot since sin was rampant in my life before I completely turned to God. Do you believe that when someone, who had accepted salvation through Christ, but turned away a couple years later, lived a life of sin, if they died in their sin, they would go to heaven? Remember, the person did accept Christ and did live in His will for a time. Their salvation was real and true, but did turn away. This is not some fictitious person I speak about. I speak of my own life and know how it was lived. I believe that as I was having an adulterous affair, high on drugs, that if I had died, I would of died in my sins and not of been accepted since I was not repentant of my sins. I chose to live that life and knew the consequences. I was, in fact, thumbing my nose at the Lord at that time and did not care. He had to break me again through conviction. Do you see me as not being saved for the first few years I lived for the Lord?

I am glad Christ alone holds judgment of His creation....

I believe there are people who's works are not of God yet they are

1 Cor 3:15

15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

NKJV

If He did not, then why would He force someone to remain who no longer wants to believe?

I cannot find anywhere in Scripture where this man exists!

If you can show me this person in Scripture than I will believe they are here now among us!

Scripture does not give a name, only points to the possibility through its warnings. The parables have a couple of them, which some say you can not create doctrine on parables, and I agree, but they do explain the truth in story form. One that comes to mind is the parable of the Ten Virgins. Five remained ready for the marriage feast, and five did not, though they were called and accepted. They just did not have enough oil for their lamps to have them remain lit. What was the oil? The Holy Spirit. How is it that they had the fullness of the Holy Spirit, yet, as time passed, they did not have enough of Him to remain ready?

because you cannot run out of the Holy Spirit this cannot be oil representing Him in the lamps I believe it is His Word 5 believed and prepared 5 did not...

This to me is the doctrine complete

1 John 5:4-13

4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

The Certainty of God's Witness

6 This is He who came by water and blood Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

NKJV

Love Steven

[Botz]

Who has the power/authority/capability to undo the work of the Spirit that G-d has performed in a person and translated them from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of His dear Son? I have always thought we were not our own, that we were bought with a price...and that real liberty is standing on the work that the L-rd has accomplished, reckoning ourselves dead to sin, a New Creation birthed through the blood of the Lamb.

We are incapable of sustaining our salvation through our works or the life we lead as it would mean that salvation is dependent upon each of us to some extent, and as enoob has pointed out it would also lessen the power of the blood and nullify the 'all sufficiency' of the grace of G-d.

A person that is saved by the grace of G-d does not undergo a partial process..being 'born again' is a completion...in fact the language used and the natural type it follows demonstrates that as Nicodemas rightly pointed out it is impossible in the natural for a child to be born again through its mother....so in the spiritual it is also impossible for a 'born again' child to experience the same process.....both the natural and the spiritual births established two things, LIFE and RELATIONSHIP....in the natural you have life, but can die, in the spiritual you have eternal life. In the natural you are the son or daughter of your mother and father, and there is no way this can be dissolved, not even judicially as the process that has given the relationship is immutable, likewise a 'born again' child cannot disown the relationship G-d has established.

By the way I would like to mention that I do not consider anyone who believes that salvation could be lost, like my dear brother Onelight to in any way be a false teacher....I believe there are various Scriptures that in some light can seem to say certain things, but when looked at in another light say something else....I hope the light in all of us is the Holy Spirit....it is just that on this issue many people are divided, it shouldn't effect our walk or our fellowship, and certainly shouldn't elicit the accusation of either party being false teachers, nor does it pave the way for laxity concerning what the Bible says in other areas....at the end of the day we all love Jesus and whether we believe salvation can be lost or not....should be unaffected by the theological implications as we work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. It's all about relationship, sons and daughters of the Living G-d.

[Guest shiloh357]

Spiros Zodihates is mistaken. The idea of abandonmnet or "falling away" does not fit the context, as the author of Hebrews is not accusing them of that. He is accusing them of stagnation and spiritual immaturity. The way a word is used is more important than its lexical definition. The primary use of parpipto and the only definition that fits how the word is being used is to fall aside, not things like fall away or abandonment. It may be used that way in other verses and in other contexts, but it not used that way here.

You're convinced I'm mistaken but you're the one who associated the falling away of 2 Thes. 2 with the fall away of Hebrews 6.

I think you have me confused with someone else. I have not said anything about 2 Thes. 2.

2 Thessalonians 2:3

[other one]

[Guest]

That is where the misunderstanding comes in. Salvation is always about Christ. We choose salvation, do we not? Does this make it about us?

Yes, His blood does cover our sins, if we repent and ask for forgiveness. Otherwise, it would be "once saved always saved." You seem to think that a relationship is just one way, that there is nothing we are required to do at all. Jesus tells us that only those who do the will of the Father will enter heaven. What if someone continually refuses to do His will, is this person going to enter heaven? What do you think Paul meant when he said that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling? That doesn't sound like doing nothing to me. In Ephesians 2, we are told "by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,not of works, lest anyone should boast." Then it continues to include "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Here, we are told how we are saved and why, for good works in Him. There is a partnership involved in this relationship. Can we do this alone? Absolutely not. Neither are we forced to do what He has for us to do. If we refuse to follow His will, are we then still doing the will of the Father?

Nothing is as cut and dry as we are told as children. Why do you think Christ tells us we need to have faith as a child? Because it is simple faith. It is when we become mature in Him that we are shown things that children don't know and understand. I am not by any means telling anyone they are children. I am only saying that as we mature, we have to accept the responsibilities that come with the maturity. This responsibility includes always seeking to remain in His will. If we refuse to obey, there is a price to pay. Yet, this does not mean that if one sins they have lost their salvation, but when one hardens their heart toward God long enough, he is in danger of loosing his salvation.

Though we may indeed mature in Him, we mus still have the faith of a child, for we do not understand His ways and must always accept His guidance as a child accepts the guidance of their parent.

There should be no misunderstanding. The only part that man plays in Salvation is to realize that we are sinners, that we need a Savior, and that to accept, through faith, that what Jesus Christ did on the Cross and His Resurrection 3 days later was sufficient to save us. Yes! By God's Grace we are saved, as you as you so aptly pointed out in Eph. 2. And 2Timothy 1:8-10 also speaks of It; "Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,..."

It is God's Will that man be saved, and those who are truly (those who believe with their whole heart, mind and soul upon Jesus Christ) saved, are sealed into Salvation at the moment of acceptance of God's Grace, through Christ, by the Holy Spirit. Man has no power over the Divine Trinity and therefore cannot "give back" what God has sealed by His Spirit. Now, a person who has withheld even a miniscule portion of them self for the world at the moment of his profession of faith can walk away, but they can not "give back" what they never had in the first place. God knows the heart of every man, He knows those who are sincere and those who hold on to the things of this world. He does not waste His Grace on those whom He knows by Him omniscience are not fully surrendered to His Will and will reject His Grace in the future.

Good works done by a saved individual are a product of the indwelling Holy Spirit, brought about through faith in Jesus Christ. Any other type of "good works" done aside from the Cross is unacceptable to God because it is not a product of one's faith in the saving power of the Blood of the Lamb, but of the world. Our good works may receive some reward here, but most assuredly will in Heaven. If Christians become stagnant and do not grow or add to the Harvest, they will loose their rewards in heaven. Except for the most important reward, which is eternity in Heaven with God. That God has promised we cannot loose.

Now, all of mankind sins, it is our nature. That does not mean that a Christian can sin willy nilly without consequences. When we sin, we are disciplined by God as a father would his child. And if we don't confess our sin and turn from it, we fall out of fellowship with Him and do not receive His blessings. But He does not punish us. His punishment, as in the Old Testament, is reserved for those who reject His Grace through the Blood of Jesus Christ and is the eternal separation from Him in the Lake of Fire. And, as humans we have the consequences of our actions as determined by a corruption of God's Laws which are determined by the corrupt State the holds power over us.

We all know at least one (me) person who has "backslidden" and turned to the ways of the world for a period of time. I'm sure that most have even know someone who were called home while they were still in their backslidden state. But do they loose their salvation? I believe that Scripture teaches that they do not. Does God take back His Grace? I believe that Scripture teaches He will not, that He cannot and still be Holy God. Was the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ not enough to save such a believer? I believe that Scripture states that it is. My heart, mind and soul, through the Holy Spirit, tells me it is.

I look forward to the day that I will see my Savior face-to-face, knowing every soul that has every been redeemed, including those whom some believe lost their salvation because of some stupid decisions that they made after being Sanctified and Justified by the shed Blood of the Lamb; by the Grace of God alone.

[other one]

You are right in that it is a free gift, and there is nothing we can do to be saved ourselves.

however:::: Matt 7:22-23

"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord , did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

NASB

He does not give that gift to just anyone, and it would behoove everyone to figure out just who he does give that freely to.

[Guest shiloh357]

You are right in that it is a free gift, and there is nothing we can do to be saved ourselves.

however:::: Matt 7:22-23

"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord , did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

NASB

He does not give that gift to just anyone, and it would behoove everyone to figure out just who he does give that freely to.

He offers it to everyone and gives it to everyone who places their trust in Him. BTW, the passage you are quoting is referring to false prophets.

[Guest]

If I may repeat myself:

God knows the heart of every man, He knows those who are sincere and those who hold on to the things of this world. He does not waste His Grace on those whom He knows by Him omniscience are not fully surrendered to His Will and will reject His Grace in the future.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Parker1

[Guest shiloh357]

If I may repeat myself:

God knows the heart of every man, He knows those who are sincere and those who hold on to the things of this world. He does not waste His Grace on those whom He knows by Him omniscience are not fully surrendered to His Will and will reject His Grace in the future.

Uh, God's grace is never wasted. Grace is not something that can be wasted. It is a gift received by faith. It is offered to all, but only received by some. It is just that God offers grace even to those whom He knows will reject it.