The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, HisdaughterJen.

Shalom, HisdaughterJen.

I would only direct you to Jesus' definition of when the tribulation began and when it ends in Matt 24 for clarity:

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

...

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.

...

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (6th seal)

1. Desolation of Israel (66-70AD)

THEN

2. Great Tribulation

3. Tribulation cut short

THEN

4. 6th seal/antichrist and false prophet arise

The error that's being taught is that the abomination of desolation has something to do with the antichrist and that the time of wrath during which the antichrist is around is the tribulation when it is not.

The devil is empowered during the 5th trumpet of the 7th seal, after the wrath begins in the 6th seal, and the 6th seal occurs immediately after the tribulation is cut short.

IN other words,

1. tribulation cut short - white robes given at 5th seal (rapture)

2. Immediately the 6th seal occurs and wrath begins

3. devil empowered in 7th seal during wrath

You are attempting to tie the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD to the tribulation, and there is no correlation. That is a partial preterist view. None of Daniel's 70th week has occurred yet. Why do you supposed Jesus mentions Daniel in the Olivet Discourse and tells the reader to understand?

Jesus was referring to Daniel 11, the armies on Holy Ground, descecrating the Temple. And yes, Jesus Himself told us the tribulation began with the desolation of Israel and will be cut short before the 6th seal. In other words, it's been going on for nearly 2000 years. I can prove it with scripture as well. The church endures tribulation, not wrath, and the two are not the same thing - they are two distinct time periods separated by the 6th seal.

The abomination of desolation standing in the Holy Place is the Roman armies.

Matt 24: 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Luke 21: 20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;

Daniel 11: 31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Sorry, but that's the wrong chapter. Chapter 11 was fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Chapter 9 is the chapter to which Yeshua` was referring in His Olivet Discourse. Thus, He was most certainly NOT talking about an "Antichrist" nor would he be the source of the "abomination of desolation." Rather, it was FOR THE OVERSPREADING OF THE ABOMINATIONS of the JEWS, that YESHUA` left them "desolate!" (See Matthew 23:37-39.) Their abominations (namely, the rejections of Yeshua`, God's Mashiach or Messiah or Christ, as His choice for their King) caused the desolation (the emptying of Jerusalem), which in turn became an abomination (a disgrace) to the Jews! This began in the first century and has continued up to the present and will continue until they can say, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!"

This is a quotation from Psalm 118:22-26 and it means "Welcome, Comer on the authority of YHVH!" When they can say that about Yeshua` whom they currently continue to reject, THEN He said He would return.

I agree!!!

It was Israel's abominations (fully detailed in the prophets, specifically Ezekiel) that caused their desolation. God sent the Roman armies to desolate Israel "until the consummation".

But I think that Daniel 11:31-35 is speaking of that as well as Daniel 9 because of verse 35:

35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

and it's connection to Daniel 9:

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In both passages, the desolation lasts until the time of the end. That didn't happen with Epiphanes.

And yes, the abomination of desolation has nothing to do with the antichrist who arises after this great tribulation that began with the desolation of Israel is cut short according to Jesus.

Hosea 6 details how long Israel's desolation would last:

1Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.

2After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

So does Micah 5:

3 Therefore Israel will be abandoned

until the time when she who is in labor gives birth

and the rest of his brothers return

to join the Israelites.

Zechariah 12 describes the moment when Israel turns and realizes who their Savior is.

I would be interested as to why you think Daniel 11:31-35 is speaking of Epiphanes though.

I tried to answer you yesterday, but lost my post and gave up for the night. I'm re-posting my answer:

Sure, I'll tell you why. His actual name (that he gave himself) was "Basileoos Antiochou Theou Epiphanous Nikeeporou," "King Antiochus, God Revealed, Bringer of Victory," as revealed on his coinage. He was a pompous old fool whose goal was to Hellenize all peoples within his domain. On Kislev 25, 168 B.C., He desecrated the Temple:

On his return homeward [from Egypt in 170 B.C.], Antiochus came to Jerusalem to reinstate Menelaus, and then the true character of the Hellenism that Antiochus desired was revealed to the Jews. He entered the Temple precincts, not out of curiosity, but to plunder the treasury, and carried away valuable utensils, such as the golden candlestick upon the altar and the showbread table, likewise of gold.

This spoliation of the Sanctuary frustrated all the attempts of Jason and the other Tobiads to Hellenize the people, for even the most well-disposed of Hellenizers among them felt outraged at this desecration. They must have given vent to their sentiment very freely; for only thus can the policy of extermination waged by Antiochus against the Jews and Judaism, two years later, 168, be explained.

As long as he was occupied with preparations for his expedition against Egypt, Antiochus had no time for Palestine; but when the Romans compelled him to forego his plans of conquest, his rage at the unexpected impediment was wreaked upon the innocent Jews.

An officer, Apollonius, was sent through the country with an armed troop, commissioned to slay and destroy. He first entered Jerusalem amicably; then suddenly turning upon the defenseless city, he murdered, plundered, and burnt through its length and breadth. The men were butchered, women and children sold into slavery, and in order to give permanence to the work of desolation, the walls and numerous houses were torn down. The old City of David was fortified anew by the Syrians, and made into a very strong fortress completely dominating the city.

Having thus made Jerusalem a Greek colony, the king's attention was next turned to the destruction of the national religion. A royal decree proclaimed the abolition of the Jewish mode of worship; Sabbaths and festivals were not to be observed; circumcision was not to be performed; the sacred books were to be surrendered and the Jews were compelled to offer sacrifices to the idols that had been erected.

The officers charged with carrying out these commands did so with great rigor; a veritable inquisition was established with monthly sessions for investigation. The possession of a sacred book or the performance of the rite of circumcision was punished with death. On Kislew (Nov.-Dec.) 25, 168, the "abomination of desolation" ( ha-shiquwts m-showmeem, Dan. xi. 31, xii. 11) was set up on the altar of burnt offering in the Temple, and the Jews required to make obeisance to it. This was probably the Olympian Zeus, or Baal Shamem.

- The Jewish Encyclopaedia (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1589-antiochus-iv-epiphanes)

I believe that Dani'el 11:31-35 is about this Antiochus IV Epiphanes and about Judas Maccabees and his brothers following that sacrilege. I believe this is true because of all the other fulfilled prophecies in the chapter!

You've perhaps heard the statement, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it"? Well, for those who study prophecy it is equally true that, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to think that the prophecy is yet to be fulfilled!" Consider the fulfilled prophecies of this chapter:

11:1-2 The rule of the final three influential kings of Medo-Persia

11:3-4 The rule of Alexander the Great

11:5 The rule of Seleucus I Nicator over the Seleucid Empire, one of the four divisions of Alexander's domain

11:6 Ptolemy II Philadelphus sent his daughter Berenice to Antiochus II Theos

11:7 Ptolemy III Euergetes avenged his sister Berenice's death

11:8 Ptolemy III looted Seleucia

11:9 Ptolemy III returned victoriously to Egypt

11:10 The sons of Callinicus, Seleucus and Antiochus III made war with Ptolemy IV Philopater

11:11 Ptolemy IV defeated Antiochus III for regaining Syria

11:12 Ptolemy IV thinks he's all that but he can't take Antiochus' kingdom

11:13 Antiochus III the "Great" gathers a large army and attacks Ptolemy V Epiphanes, a FIVE-YEAR-OLD, at his father's death

11:14a Philip of Macedon and Jewish mercenaries side with Antiochus III

11:14b Egyptian general Scopas takes Judea

11:15-16 Antiochus III the Great defeats Scopas and Ptolemy V Epiphanes

11:17 Antiochus III tried to take all of Egypt by giving his daughter Cleopatra I to Ptolemy V, but it backfires; she ends up loving him and turns against her father

11:18 Antiochus III declared war on Rome only to be beaten by Scipio Asiaticus and made to pay for Rome's war costs

11:19 Antiochus III the "Great" was assassinated for theft of a shrine

11:20 Seleucus IV Philopater, Antiochus' son, raised taxes to pay Rome's debt and was assassinated by Heliodorus

11:21-32a The Rule of Antiochus IV Epiphanes

11:32b-35 The Rule of Judas the Maccabees (the "Hammer")

11:36-39 The Rule of Caesar Augustus over Judea through his vassal king Herod the Great

11:40-43 The Rule of Caesar Augustus himself and the end of the Greek kingdoms

11:44-45 The Rule of Caesar Augustus over Judea again through his vassal king Herod the Great

There's just too much detail in the prophecies and in their fulfillment as found in secular history to suggest that these verses were to be fulfilled in OUR future. They are ALREADY FULFILLED! Now, as far as 11:35 is concerned, you need to understand two things:

First, the "abomination of desolation" is NOT a label. It is a phrase that should be given a literal interpretation: It was an abomination - a detestable act, an atrocity - that caused desolation - the emptying of the Temple and Jerusalem, a despoliation!

Second, one should understand that "the end-times" are not just in our future! They actually began in the first century A.D! Note a few Scripture verses:

Hebrews 1:1-4

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last (Greek: eschatos) days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

KJV

1 Peter 1:18-21

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times (Greek: eschatos) for you,

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

KJV

1 John 2:18

18 Little children, it is the last (Greek: eschatos) time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last (Greek: eschatos) time.

KJV

We are LIVING in the gap within the "last times" that Yeshua` created, as I know you've mentioned already, namely Matthew 23:37-39!

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, HisdaughterJen.

P.S. - I don't think I was clear enough on Dani'el 11:35:

35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

This is talking about the courageous men who fought under the leadership of Judas Maccabees and his brothers. "Some of them of understanding (such as Judas Maccabees himself) shall fall, to test them and to purify them and to make them white, even to the time of the end." For their courage and their trust in God for His help, He justified them and they will stand before Him in the resurrection.

But, there are MANY in the Tanakh (the OT) who, through faith - that is, through their trust in God's power and His willingness to answer prayers - who are just as "righteous" as Avraham was or as we are!

We have been blessed by the indwelling of the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit), but we are NOT the only ones justified by God! Thus, there is no true difference between "Christians" and "OT Saints!"

Furthermore, "church" today is a misnomer. The Greek word "ekkleesia" simply meant a "called-out" assembly, nothing more! The word was also used for the town council of Ephesus in Acts 19:32 and 39. The word was also used for the congregation of the children of Isra'el at Mount Sinai in Acts 7:38, and it is THIS usage that I believe should actually be called the "church." I believe it was to THIS "church" that Paul frequently referred when talking to the congregations in all the cities he visited! Consider this: he always started his ministry in the local synagogue in whatever city he came! "To the Jew first and also to the Greek!"

Consider Romans 11 and Ephesians 2: Those of us believers who are Gentiles are grafted into the Olive Tree, but notice what it says about the "natural branches":

Romans 11:24-29

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

KJV

See what he tells the Gentile population in Ephesus:

Ephesians 2:11-22

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

KJV

God does not renig on His gifts and calling! Isra'el WAS God's people, and therefore, they still ARE God's people, not for any good they have done but for their ancestors' sakes! THEY ARE FAMILY! And, this should be an encouragement to us! If He won't give up on them, then He won't give up on us, either!

Furthermore, we are made fellowcitizens WITH THE SAINTS! What "saints?" The OT saints, of course, men and women like Avraham, Sarah, Yitschaq (Isaac), Ya`aqov (Jacob), Yosef (Joseph), Mosheh (Moses), Aharon (Aaron), Y'hoshua` (Joshua), Kalev (Caleb), Rachav (Rahab), Bo'az, Rut (Ruth), Daveed (David), Shlomo (Solomon), to name but a few!

All that to say this about the Rapture: What is its purpose? It's not to provide an escape for us! He won't do that. He can protect us THROUGH the storm of His Wrath, just as He did with the children of Isra'el while in Egypt! In fact, He has NEVER promised to take us out of persecution but to go WITH US THROUGH the persecution, just as He did with Shadrach, Meshech and Abednego! They went THROUGH the fire and flames but they had no power over them, no effect on them!

So, why the promise of a Rapture in 1 Thes. 4:13-17 (and there IS a Rapture there)?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Greek: harpageesometha = "shall be snatched away") together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

KJV

This is not so much a passage on the Rapture as it is a passage about the RESURRECTION!

Furthermore, notice that it does NOT say where we go after we're "in the clouds" and "in the air!" All it says is that we will never be separated from our Lord again! So, where will HE go from there? What is HIS mission for returning?

Zechariah 12:1-9

1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.

6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

KJV

Zechariah 14:1-5

1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

KJV

Revelation 19:11-15

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

KJV

He will be gathering His army - gathering US - to fight for His people, Isra'el! There will be an urgency and a zeal in Him to rescue (save) His people! Time will be of the essence, and He won't have time to have His army get there by conventional means! He will transport us by sending His messengers to gather us from all directions to convene in the skies above Isra'el! THIS is the purpose of the Rapture! It's a MASS-TRANSIT SYSTEM!

[Guest]

.... There is no scripture that says the church is gathered to Jerusalem in earthly Israel....

Riding Riding Riding

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Revelation 19:11-14

Working Working Working

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6

[OneLight]

The 7th trumpet in Revelation is the last trumpet from God spoken of in scripture. Can you find another place in scripture where you can put the timing of a trumpet after the 7th trumpet? Last is last ...

Paul referred to "in the last trump" in 1 Cor 15 denoting a time, a specific year in fact, when the trumpet call of God will take place. If you go to the Greek (google Greek online interlinear) it says,

"in an instant, in the wink of an eye, in the ultimate/farthest/last trump, He shall be trumpeting and the dead ones shall be roused incorruptable".

Paul was referring to the Jubliee (trump) that God instituted in Leviticus, the last of which is just before the Day of the Lord (millenial 7th day) begins.

Psa 47:5 God is gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a trumpet.

The 7th trumpet of Revelation is at least 3 1/2 years into the Day of the Lord, after all the wrath has been poured out just before Christ comes with the armies of heaven to destroy the army formed against Him. The church is standing in heaven in Rev 7 and Rev 12 prior to wrath that begins on the Day of the Lord.

You have too many threads opened discussing the same subjects. I have answered you in your other thread.

[mizzdy]

Perhaps if you would just stick with one or two topics you and everyone else wouldn't get so confused.

Do you even know why God uses trumpets? They are not willy nilly blown but are for specific reasons, reasons laid out in scriptures. When John and others are explaining the trumpets he knew his audience would know exactly what he was meaning, that this great trib would start at the Feast of Trumpets or Yom Teruah. John was telling them to be ready, have their oil lamps ready, and to prepare oneself for the return of the Messiah when He comes to take the wicked away, change us so we can reign on this earth in Jerusalem for a thousand years.

You may believe you are giving the word of God yet it seems when anyone suggests anything other than what you yourself 'know' is the whole truth of God you turn it to 'I'm right your wrong because I am showing the word of God'. Others are showing His word also, Paul and the rest warn of vain deceits, John warns of false prophets, could you please slow down and actually have a discussion which involves give and take, back and forth, not 'don't you see what I am saying to you' kinda statements.

shalom,

Mizz

[mizzdy]

Do you even know why God uses trumpets? They are not willy nilly blown but are for specific reasons, reasons laid out in scriptures. When John and others are explaining the trumpets he knew his audience would know exactly what he was meaning, that this great trib would start at the Feast of Trumpets or Yom Teruah.

Yes, that's exactly right - there is a scriptural purpose for every trumpet blown.

The idea that John "meant" the "great tribulation would start at the Feast of Trumpets" is NOT one of them. That is not scriptural at all.

God says He declared all things from the beginning and set His plan in motion, we see Yeshua, who is God in the flesh come and then change everything? John knew His audience would know exactly what he was talking about when he talks about the trumpets, not a new concept but one ingrained into them throughout their lives. God wraps His entire plan of redemption, reconciliation and restoration in His feasts. We see Messiah using the references to the wedding, wedding supper, feasts and all those pesky things that people think are no longer 'for us'. Yet if God, if Messiah, if John all uses the same imagery why do you discount it? Why would John or any of the others who God gave the visions for the end of the age use the same thoughts if they are not important? Yes Yom Teruah, the feast of Trumpets, is what starts it all, after all we all believe He fulfilled the spring feasts correct? and since that is the truth of scripture He will return and fulfill the fall feast when He comes to tabernacle with us, His body/bride and we will be with Him where He will be, sitting on His throne in Jerusalem reigning over the earth. It is scriptural just no one wants to see it since most see His words through a greek mindset and fail to see the content, context of what John is speaking of, sorry if that doesn't line up with your pretrib theory.

God protects His own by supernatural protection, he did not take the Hebrews out of Egypt but protected them in Goshem, He protected Noah on a boat, He protected David on a mountain top and so many others show He protects us where we are and doesnt whisk us off to heaven, if that was so then there would be no reason for a resurrection.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Perhaps if you would just stick with one or two topics you and everyone else wouldn't get so confused.

I agree. Jen, you are all over the place, and to me, it's an eye-sore. It's like you have taken over every single thread in the prophecy and eschatology threads. Until you simmer down a bit, I'm not going to waste my time on all of this clutter you have strung about everywhere.

Do you even know why God uses trumpets? They are not willy nilly blown but are for specific reasons, reasons laid out in scriptures. When John and others are explaining the trumpets he knew his audience would know exactly what he was meaning, that this great trib would start at the Feast of Trumpets or Yom Teruah.

I disagree. Although scripture doesn't pin point when the great tribulation begins, it appears to start at the abomination of desolation or very shortly afterward. You are the first one I've ever heard say the feast of trumpets starts the tribulation.

John was telling them to be ready, have their oil lamps ready, and to prepare oneself for the return of the Messiah when He comes to take the wicked away, change us so we can reign on this earth in Jerusalem for a thousand years.

shalom,

Mizz

It appears that you are referring to the parable of ten virgins here, but then you end up jumping into the parable of talents, both of which are in Matt. 25. But I can't see how the wicked will be taken away before we are changed. Scripture does not allow it. Judgment begins with the house of the Lord, so the resurrection/rapture must happen first. The wicked will be removed at the second coming, when Christ judges the nations and separates the sheep from the goats, when Christ returns with His saints to rule and reign.

The righteous will be judged first, then the people of the nations that are alive at the second coming, then the wicked will be judged after the millennium at the great white throne.

Now the judgment of the righteous will result in three different levels of reward or punishment, yet all will be saved, though some as going through the flames. This is why the rapture and second coming are so confusing and controversial, which is not surprising since it is a great and profound mystery. The confusion begins by teaching that the church will be raptured. I'm not saying there is no rapture, because there will be, but only those that are ready will be going, as this is the highest reward for His faithful servants.

This leaves us with two other groups of believers. Those that will receive a few stripes (Luke 12:45-46) as punishment for not being ready when the Bridegroom comes. These are the ones that will have to refuse the mark of the beast and become martyrs. After they are all martyred, the bride will finally be made ready, and God will avenge their blood and pour out His wrath. But these martyrs will also return with Christ in glorified bodies. These first two groups are the Church made complete, that will return to rule and reign with Christ, but that's not all. There is still another group of believers that will not return with Christ at the second coming.

The final group of believers are the ones that will be beaten with many stripes (Luke 12:47). These are the believers that will fall away from the faith, and/or the believers that are escaping through the flames. And these are also the sheep that will be separated from the goats at the second coming. They will not receive glorified bodies as they will remain in their flesh and be ruled over by Christ and the wise and foolish virgins that return with Him.

Rewards and Punishments of believers

Ready = rapture and wedding supper

Not Ready = these martyrs will have to die to enter the Kingdom of heaven

Fall away = will want to die, but death will flee from them and they will be saved (protected) through God's wrath and repopulate the earth.

There's a whole lot more to it, but this is just a nutshell version of what's in the last three chapters in my book. I know, this is not what's being taught by our so-called prophecy experts and may look a little strange at first glance, but it actually makes sense and fills an awful lot of holes and questions that were left unanswered, until now that is. So get ready for the book that is going to revolutionize the way many view the rapture and other end time events.

[rollinTHUNDER]

I disagree. Although scripture doesn't pin point when the great tribulation begins, it appears to start at the abomination of desolation or very shortly afterward.

Let me see if I can be clear for you on this one.

Jesus said when the great tribulation begins in Matt 24 and when it ends.

Jesus said what happens both after it AND what happens IMMEDIATELY after it.

Jesus revealed to John who comes out of it and WHEN they come out of it in Rev 6 & 7.

Now, hopefully God's Word isn't too much of an eye-sore for you:

When it started:

Matt 24:Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

...

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

What happens both after it AND immediately after it:

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

and

Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Who comes out of it and when:

Rev 7:9 ¶ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

...

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

[based on your "signature line" in your post, you appear to be attempting to profit on the Word of God, is that correct? By your words, you appear to think that the abomination of desolation and subsequent great tribulation are still future events - WRONG - your book has been out 10 days and already needs a revision!]

It is not God's Word that is an eye-sore. The eye-sore is the way that you attempt to hijack every thread, littering or cluttering them up with your all-knowing beliefs. Personally, I don't know you or have any beef with you, but I don't have time to waste on your non-stop utterings of everything under the sun that you may believe, no matter how twisted it may be. I'm actually content in letting you believe whatever you want to believe. I have nothing to prove to you whatsoever.

As far as me attempting to profit on the Word of God, no, I don't believe that is correct at all. I'm not selling God's Word. In 1989, God told me I was going to write, even though I was not a writer then, nor did I have any desire to become one. I also did not even know what Bible prophecy was then, but I became interested in it about a year later, after reading a book.

Now fastforward 22 years, and like the old saying goes, "the proof is in the pudding." I never asked to be a writer, but what He told me then has now come to pass. And not only has He done in me what He said He was going to do, but He has also poured me out a double portion. In my book is not just a new theory, but there are two brand new theories presented in it, which makes it very unique. If you believe that the abomination of desolation and the resurrection are already past, I don't have a problem with that, for there are many others that believe the same way. But you should know this, that God is not bound by what men believe, no matter how strongly we may believe it.

[Guest Sha'ul]

The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

by Dr. Thomas Ice

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

-2 Thessalonians 2:3

I believe that there is a strong possibility that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated "apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated "departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.

Find the full article here: http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/rapture-in-2-thessalonians-23

AS MOST OF US KNOW, 1 COR. 15:52 IN A MOMENT, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, AT THE LAST TRUMPET. FOR THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND, AND THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED. AND 1 THESS. 4:16-17 16) FOR THE LORD HIMSELF WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF AN ARCH ANGEL, AND WITH THE TRUMPET OF GOD. AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST. 17) THEN WE WHO ARE AL...IVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. AND THUS WE SHALL ALWAYS BE WITH THE LORD. AS MOST OF US KNOW THAT THESE ARE 2 OF MOST USED AND FAVORITE PASSAGES IN SCRIPTURE FOR PRE-TRIB EVIDENCE. SO LETS LOOK AT 1 CORINTHIANS FIRST, IN IT, IT SAYS AT THE 'LAST' TRUMP. THE GREEK WORD FOR LAST IS 'ESCHATOS' WHICH MEANS, (FARTHEST, FINAL, LAST, UTTERMOST. SO HERE THIS VERSE SAYS AT THE FINAL TRUMP, THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE. HMMMM. NOW LETS LOOK AT 1 THESS. IN VERSE 16, THE WORD DESCEND IN THE GREEK IS 'KATABAINO' MEANING TO COME DOWN FROM, SO THIS MEANS YESHUA IS COMING DOWN FROM. ALSO IN VERSE 16, "WITH A SHOUT" THE GREEK WORD 'KELEUMA' WHICH MEANS A CRY OF INCITEMENT' SO NOT A SILENT EVENT. V.17 "WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN" THE WORD REMAIN IN THE GREEK IS 'PERILEIPO' WHICH MEANS TO LEAVE ALL AROUND, SURVIVE' HMMM, WHO HAVE SURVIVED. NOW LETS LOOK AT REV. 20:4-5 4)AND I SAW THRONES, AND THEY SAT ON THEM, AND JUDGEMENT WAS COMMITTED TO THEM. THEN I SAW THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO HAD BEEN BEHEADED FOR THEIR WITNESS TO YESHUA AND FOR THE WORD OF YHVH, WHO HAD NOT WORSHIPED THE BEAST OR HIS IMAGE, AND HAD NOT RECEIVED HIS MARK ON THEIR FORHEADS OR ON THEIR HANDS. AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST FOR A THOUSAND YRS. 5) BUT THE REST OF THE DEADDID NOT LIVE AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. SO HERE IN REVELATION 20 IT IS TELLING US THAT THOSE WHO WERE BEHEADED IN THE TRIBULATION AND DIDN'T TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST WERE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION, WHICH GOES ALONG WITH 1 THESS. 4 ABOUT THE DEAD WILL RISE FIRST, WHICH GOES ALONG WITH 1 COR. 15 AT THE LAST TRUMP AND THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORUPTIBLE. THE KEY HERE IS THAT THOSE WHO WERE BEHEADED ARE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION. THEN THAT WOULD MEAN THAT THERE COULDN'T BE A RAPTURE OF THE SAINTS BEFORE THE TRIB. IF THEY ARE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION. WHICH WOULD THEN FOLLOW WITH HEBREWS 9:28 SO MESSIAH WAS OFFERED ONCE TO BEAR THE SINS OF MANY. TO THOSE WHO EAGERLY WAIT FOR HIM HE WILL APPEAR A SECOND TIME, APART FROM SIN, FOR SALVATION. SO ALL THIS TELLS US THAT YESHUA WILL COME A SECOND TIME, AND THE FIRST RESURRECTION IS NOT UNTIL THOSE WHO ARE BEHEADED IN THE GREAT TRIBULATION. THAT MEANS THAT PRE-TRIB IS A LIE. SCRIPTURE BACKS UP SCRIPTURE, BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHINGS. SHALOM

[rollinTHUNDER]

It never ceases to amaze me how people will completely ignore the very words of Jesus as if God is a liar.

It doesn't matter what you think or what I think. The ONLY thing that matters is what GOD SAID. Some of us choose to believe HIM and some apparently would rather blather on, listening ONLY to themselves.

Jesus said it all:

Jesus said when the great tribulation begins in Matt 24 and when it ends.

Jesus said what happens both after it AND what happens IMMEDIATELY after it.

Jesus revealed to John who comes out of it and WHEN they come out of it in Rev 6 & 7.

Now, hopefully God's Word isn't too much of an eye-sore for you:

When it started:

Matt 24:Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

...

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

What happens both after it AND immediately after it:

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

and

Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Who comes out of it and when:

Rev 7:9 ¶ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

...

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

You've got to be kidding me! Are you for real?

All of your flying off the handle, ranting and raving like some mad woman on steroids is doing is showing how totally out of control you are, not to even mention that you have a nasty, nasty attitude. I don't have time to waste on this type of nonsense.

I encourage you to keep on studying, though, and hopefully someday you will actually know as much as you think you do now.