Creation???

[ByFaithAlone]

Perhaps yom in context, means long periods of time... Perhaps you are the one being selectively literal... There are two sides to this coin.... However, even if we throw out that evidence, I have more...

I am not selectively literal. I just understand literary analysis and Hebrew better than you do.

I suppose I can most humbly accept that although I would contend that the man who I have been citing probably has more experience then both of us combined....

The events of the sixth day seem to require longer than 24 hours also. The text indicates that God planted a garden. This garden was not planted full-grown, since the text says that the trees were caused to sprout or grow (Hebrew tsamach30). The amount of time allowed for the garden to grow is not stated, but would presumably take longer than 24-hours. After the garden had grown sufficiently, the man was placed into the garden to cultivate it.31 By this time, the trees were producing fruit so that Adam could eat.32 This process takes a period of time greater than 24 hours.

This author is not taking into account the supernatural element in play. Creation was not a natural event. It was a supernatural event. God could have done it all in a moment. He is not bound by the limits of scientific possibility.

True... but it says that God allowed the earth to bring forth plants. Last time I checked the earth does not have the supernatural ability to bring forth trees that quickly... I could be mistaken...

Also, you never really addressed the second part I quoted... Do you have a response to that part?

[Guest]

Thanks for the Scriptures. I agree with other one. Everything is past tense to God. I think that the Scriptures you presented are telling us that what God says remains unchanged, even unto a thousandth generation, that is, forever. I find it interesting that the Scriptures are able to lead one person to one conclusion and another person to another conclusion.

Your welcome. I'm ok with you agreeing with other one. It doesn't bother me. I do not deny that God could have created the world in 6 24 hr days. As you say, Scripture can lead us to very different conclusions.

Shalom

P.S. Heading to lunch. I'll reply when I get back. Don't add too many things...

Enjoy, my friend.

[Guest shiloh357]

I suppose I can most humbly accept that although I would contend that the man who I have been citing probably has more experience then both of us combined....

Judging from what i have read thus far, I highly doubt he has much of a clue. I can tell he is just citing the words from the Strong's concordance and does no exegesis on those words. He doesn't have much of a grasp of the language.

True... but it says that God allowed the earth to bring forth plants. Last time I checked the earth does not have the supernatural ability to bring forth trees that quickly... I could be mistaken...

You are mistaken. The text doesn't say God allowed. The word, וַיַּצְמַח vayatzmach is a HIPHIL, 3rd person, masculine verb and means "to cause to grow."

Also, you never really addressed the second part I quoted... Do you have a response to that part?

My comments applied to that entire paragraph, not just to the part I cited. I cited a portion to serve as a referent for the whole paragraph.

[ByFaithAlone]

I suppose I can most humbly accept that although I would contend that the man who I have been citing probably has more experience then both of us combined....

Judging from what i have read thus far, I highly doubt he has much of a clue. I can tell he is just citing the words from the Strong's concordance and does no exegesis on those words. He doesn't have much of a grasp of the language.

True... but it says that God allowed the earth to bring forth plants. Last time I checked the earth does not have the supernatural ability to bring forth trees that quickly... I could be mistaken...

You are mistaken. The text doesn't say God allowed. The word vayatzmach isi a HIPHIL, 3rd person, masculine verb and means "to cause to grow."

Also, you never really addressed the second part I quoted... Do you have a response to that part?

My comments applied to that entire paragraph, not just to the part I cited. I cited a portion to serve as a referent for the whole paragraph.

I would disagree with you here... verses 11 and 12 for your enjoyment w/ translation

י וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, תַּדְשֵׁא הָאָרֶץ דֶּשֶׁא עֵשֶׂב

מַזְרִיעַ זֶרַע, עֵץ פְּרִי עֹשֶׂה פְּרִי לְמִינוֹ, אֲשֶׁר זַרְעוֹ-בוֹ

עַל-הָאָרֶץ; וַיְהִי-כֵן.

And God said: 'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.' And it was so.

וַתּוֹצֵא הָאָרֶץ דֶּשֶׁא עֵשֶׂב מַזְרִיעַ זֶרַע, לְמִינֵהוּ,

וְעֵץ עֹשֶׂה-פְּרִי אֲשֶׁר זַרְעוֹ-בוֹ, לְמִינֵהוּ; וַיַּרְא

אֱלֹהִים, כִּי-טוֹב.

And the earth brought forth grass, herb yielding seed after its kind, and tree bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

No where do I see the word vayatzmach. Instead deshe ( דֶּ֠שֶׁא - grass or vegiatation) from the word dasha (דָּשָׁא - or to germinate until green - over 24 hrs last time I checked) is used in connection with the word for earth (אָ֫רֶץ - earth or land)

Also see below on the other things you did not address:

"On the third day God allows the earth to produce plants through germination (sprouting) and growth until seeds are produced. The Hebrew word dasha refers to a plant that sprouts from a seed until the seedling turns green.12 This verb tells us that God used processes identical to what we see on the earth today. Plants spouted, grew to maturity, and produced seeds. Several kinds of plants are described. The Hebrew word deshe13 refers primarily to grasses; the word eseb14 refers primarily to herbs and the words peri15 ets16 refer to fruit trees."

God let the earth bring forth the vegetation. This much has been apparent in numerous translations by scholars far superior to ourselves.

[Guest shiloh357]

I would disagree with you here... verses 11 and 12 for your enjoyment w/ translation

י וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, תַּדְשֵׁא הָאָרֶץ דֶּשֶׁא עֵשֶׂב

מַזְרִיעַ זֶרַע, עֵץ פְּרִי עֹשֶׂה פְּרִי לְמִינוֹ, אֲשֶׁר זַרְעוֹ-בוֹ

עַל-הָאָרֶץ; וַיְהִי-כֵן.

And God said: 'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.' And it was so.

וַתּוֹצֵא הָאָרֶץ דֶּשֶׁא עֵשֶׂב מַזְרִיעַ זֶרַע, לְמִינֵהוּ,

וְעֵץ עֹשֶׂה-פְּרִי אֲשֶׁר זַרְעוֹ-בוֹ, לְמִינֵהוּ; וַיַּרְא

אֱלֹהִים, כִּי-טוֹב.

And the earth brought forth grass, herb yielding seed after its kind, and tree bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

No where do I see the word vayatzmach. Instead deshe ( דֶּ֠שֶׁא - grass or vegiatation) from the word dasha (דָּשָׁא - or to germinate until green - over 24 hrs last time I checked) is used in connection with the word for earth (אָ֫רֶץ - earth or land)

Well maybe you should have read the article you posted a little better. The author of your article cited Gen. 2:9:

And out of the ground the LORD God made to spring up (vayatzmach) every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

(Gen 2:9)

Also the author said the following:

"The ultimate nephesh creation is mankind, created at the end of the sixth day. Genesis 1:27 tells us that God created mankind as males and females. However, Genesis 2 tells us more about the sixth day. From Genesis 1:27, we know that the sixth day extended at least through the creation of Eve, since the text indicates that God created both males and females on the sixth day. The following events took place after the creation of Adam

* God planted a garden in Eden (Genesis 2:8)26

* God caused the garden to sprout and grow (Genesis 2:9)27

* God brought all the birds, cattle and wild animals to Adam to name (Genesis 2:19-20)28

* God put Adam to sleep, took a part of him and formed Eve (Genesis 2:21-22)29"

And the author said this:

"The events of the sixth day seem to require longer than 24 hours also. The text indicates that God planted a garden. This garden was not planted full-grown, since the text says that the trees were caused to sprout or grow (Hebrew tsamach30)."

Also see below on the other things you did not address:

No need to address them, as i have made the point above that you are not really very well versed in the article you cite as demonstrated by your posts.

[Guest]

I suppose I can most humbly accept that although I would contend that the man who I have been citing probably has more experience then both of us combined....

Judging from what i have read thus far, I highly doubt he has much of a clue. I can tell he is just citing the words from the Strong's concordance and does no exegesis on those words. He doesn't have much of a grasp of the language.

True... but it says that God allowed the earth to bring forth plants. Last time I checked the earth does not have the supernatural ability to bring forth trees that quickly... I could be mistaken...

You are mistaken. The text doesn't say God allowed. The word vayatzmach isi a HIPHIL, 3rd person, masculine verb and means "to cause to grow."

Also, you never really addressed the second part I quoted... Do you have a response to that part?

My comments applied to that entire paragraph, not just to the part I cited. I cited a portion to serve as a referent for the whole paragraph.

I would disagree with you here... verses 11 and 12 for your enjoyment w/ translation

י וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, תַּדְשֵׁא הָאָרֶץ דֶּשֶׁא עֵשֶׂב

מַזְרִיעַ זֶרַע, עֵץ פְּרִי עֹשֶׂה פְּרִי לְמִינוֹ, אֲשֶׁר זַרְעוֹ-בוֹ

עַל-הָאָרֶץ; וַיְהִי-כֵן.

And God said: 'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.' And it was so.

וַתּוֹצֵא הָאָרֶץ דֶּשֶׁא עֵשֶׂב מַזְרִיעַ זֶרַע, לְמִינֵהוּ,

וְעֵץ עֹשֶׂה-פְּרִי אֲשֶׁר זַרְעוֹ-בוֹ, לְמִינֵהוּ; וַיַּרְא

אֱלֹהִים, כִּי-טוֹב.

And the earth brought forth grass, herb yielding seed after its kind, and tree bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

No where do I see the word vayatzmach. Instead deshe ( דֶּ֠שֶׁא - grass or vegiatation) from the word dasha (דָּשָׁא - or to germinate until green - over 24 hrs last time I checked) is used in connection with the word for earth (אָ֫רֶץ - earth or land)

Also see below on the other things you did not address:

"On the third day God allows the earth to produce plants through germination (sprouting) and growth until seeds are produced. The Hebrew word dasha refers to a plant that sprouts from a seed until the seedling turns green.12 This verb tells us that God used processes identical to what we see on the earth today. Plants spouted, grew to maturity, and produced seeds. Several kinds of plants are described. The Hebrew word deshe13 refers primarily to grasses; the word eseb14 refers primarily to herbs and the words peri15 ets16 refer to fruit trees."

God let the earth bring forth the vegetation. This much has been apparent in numerous translations by scholars far superior to ourselves.

You have to think about it like time-lapse photography. God can, and did, make it happen just that quickly.

[OneLight]

And you STILL haven't addressed my point. If the literal is plausible then why look for an alternative explanation?

Largely because of scientific evidence against it and the fact that the Word of the Lord has been proclaimed for at least 40,000 years (as compared to the 6,000 years supported by YEC)

Could you please re-post the Scripture which you are using as evidence of the 40,000 years? I know you have before, but I'm too lazy to go back and find it. Thanks

Lol. I like being lazy too. Here are a few verses. Granting the fact that many of the early Biblical characters lived longer lives we could expand the estimate of 40,000 years but we'll use that as a conservative guess...

"Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;" (Deuteronomy 7:9)

Remember His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations, (1 Chronicles 16:15)

He has remembered His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations, (Psalm 105:8)

That is not saying that the thousand generations have passed, LoL

Last time I checked "commanded" was past tense.... Am I wrong?

The word commanded is past tense, but the time frame doesn't read as past tense.

I don't understand what you are saying here... enlighten me.

I was in a hurry and should of first asked if you believe a generation is 40 years. I ask because you mentioned 1000 generations along with the 40,000 years. This led me to think that your believe the 40,000 years was the 1000 generation, which would of already passed since you stated "Largely because of scientific evidence against it and the fact that the Word of the Lord has been proclaimed for at least 40,000 years". So, following this train of thought (sorry if I was wrong), I was thinking that you meant the timeline of 1000 generations was also past tense, which I disagree with.

Hope that cleared it up for you.

[OldShep]

Wow, way above my head this time stuff and then stuffing God into it, to boot!

I think, that is like trying to stuff God into a little box so we can look at Him through a little scope.

What makes us think that we really understand what time is?

We only assume that time today is the same as it was when the earth was made. We have people trying to find the beginning point of the earth, the great bang. In the past few years, we have had a bunch of people, that have told us the age of the universe, one age was 13 billon years old. Then they took another look and raised it up a couple of billion years. I think, that we will not find an end and that means we will not find a beginning, because {time}, like everything else was made by God.

The Bible tells us in Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

When God created the heavens and the earth, He also created everything else. All the stars, all the galaxies, all the solar systems, all the angels in heaven, plus whatever else may be out there. Instead of the universe being made "in" time, time it self came into being with the universe, or maybe God created it (time) as the result of the fall, for Adam and Eve, were to have lived forever.

Has anyone ever had a moment in time, in which everything around you and even time it's self, seem to have slowed down? I have, three times.

[other one]

Wow, way above my head this time stuff and then stuffing God into it, to boot!

I think, that is like trying to stuff God into a little box so we can look at Him through a little scope.

What makes us think that we really understand what time is?

We only assume that time today is the same as it was when the earth was made. We have people trying to find the beginning point of the earth, the great bang. In the past few years, we have had a bunch of people, that have told us the age of the universe, one age was 13 billon years old. Then they took another look and raised it up a couple of billion years. I think, that we will not find an end and that means we will not find a beginning, because {time}, like everything else was made by God.

The Bible tells us in Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

When God created the heavens and the earth, He also created everything else. All the stars, all the galaxies, all the solar systems, all the angels in heaven, plus whatever else may be out there. Instead of the universe being made "in" time, time it self came into being with the universe, or maybe God created it (time) as the result of the fall, for Adam and Eve, were to have lived forever.

Has anyone ever had a moment in time, in which everything around you and even time it's self, seem to have slowed down? I have, three times.

Actually many scientists have come to the conclusion that the speed of light is not really constant...... which would tell us that neither would time flow be constant.

Using our own science if light's speed was drastically different just after the big bang, the whole universe could have aged 15 billion years in what now we would consider an instant.

[ByFaithAlone]

I would disagree with you here... verses 11 and 12 for your enjoyment w/ translation

י וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, תַּדְשֵׁא הָאָרֶץ דֶּשֶׁא עֵשֶׂב

מַזְרִיעַ זֶרַע, עֵץ פְּרִי עֹשֶׂה פְּרִי לְמִינוֹ, אֲשֶׁר זַרְעוֹ-בוֹ

עַל-הָאָרֶץ; וַיְהִי-כֵן.

And God said: 'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.' And it was so.

וַתּוֹצֵא הָאָרֶץ דֶּשֶׁא עֵשֶׂב מַזְרִיעַ זֶרַע, לְמִינֵהוּ,

וְעֵץ עֹשֶׂה-פְּרִי אֲשֶׁר זַרְעוֹ-בוֹ, לְמִינֵהוּ; וַיַּרְא

אֱלֹהִים, כִּי-טוֹב.

And the earth brought forth grass, herb yielding seed after its kind, and tree bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

No where do I see the word vayatzmach. Instead deshe ( דֶּ֠שֶׁא - grass or vegiatation) from the word dasha (דָּשָׁא - or to germinate until green - over 24 hrs last time I checked) is used in connection with the word for earth (אָ֫רֶץ - earth or land)

Well maybe you should have read the article you posted a little better. The author of your article cited Gen. 2:9:

And out of the ground the LORD God made to spring up (vayatzmach) every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

(Gen 2:9)

And the article and site also talked about the third day... the part we were discussing. You still did not address the fact that God allowed the earth to bring forth the plants on the thrid yom. This indicates a longer period of time then just 24 hours...

I am fine with discussing the 6th day too. As you say, Deem has a lot to say on that subject too. However, you still haven't addressed the fact that on the third day, God allowed the earth to bring forth vegetation or the main issue that Deem has with the 6th day. Namely, if Adam named all the species currently existing it would take a very long time indeed.

http://www.explorebiodiversity.com/Mexico/Pages/Habitats/species.htm - "At high estimate of the number of species that could exist on earth - that high estimate being around 100 million species. A low estimate is 2 million. The best estimate might be around 10 million. But even if that’s the case, it means we've only known about a small fraction of what is presently there."

This means Adam (not God) would have to name approximately 115.740741 species/second to name all of the currently alive species in the world today in one day. Just to let you know, the current fastest speaker in the world can speak only 10.6233333 words/sec according the the Guinness Book Of World Records.

Also see below on the other things you did not address:

No need to address them, as i have made the point above that you are not really very well versed in the article you cite as demonstrated by your posts.

What a great ad hominem fallacy attack while at the same time not addressing my points! I applaud you... oh wait....