Omniscience

[godrulz]

name='godrulz' timestamp='1311964216' post='1701951'

name='Believer112' timestamp='1311898218' post='1701763'

name='shiloh357' timestamp='1311721352' post='1700925'

Tell me this...

The omniscience of God. Do you think it means that God has all possible knowledge (which would include all propositional and all experiential knowledge)? Or would it include only propositional knowledge?

1 John 3

²⁰For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart and knoweth all things.

I'm going to take this scripture by faith. God created a tree of knowledge (good and evil), so if He can create knowledge He is all knowing. Humans trying to figure out what God knows is like monkeys trying to figure out how we build cars.

You are not using faith, but presumption. The context shows that he knows all things in relation to something specific, our hearts (present knowledge; past knowledge). Other principles/passages/thinking would bring in limitation as to the extent of his future knowledge. Your view cannot be based on one verse out of context that contradicts other verses/concepts (where God does not know the future exhaustively).

A verse about God knowing our hearts totally (past/present knowledge) cannot be extrapolated to defend exhaustive definite foreknowledge of future free will contingencies (omniscience issue). Likewise, the verse that says that all things are possible with God is in a context of salvation and cannot be extrapolated to mean that He can create square circles (relates to omnipotence).

Your 'faith' becomes presumption and error if you misuse Scripture to beg the question about your own wrong views.

In the seventh or eighth dimension he may well be able to create square circles..... Outside the fourth dimension you may well have already decided to get up late tomorrow.... You have some very rigid views and I don't think they are as nearly as definite as you seem to express...... but that's my personal opinion and you're certainly owed the same privilege.

This is speculative, nonsensical. Why reject a defensible view from Scripture and logic and cling to a wrong view based on sci-fi?!

[Guest]

This is speculative, nonsensical. Why reject a defensible view from Scripture and logic and cling to a wrong view based on sci-fi?!

Yeap! No Matter How Many Dimensions (Or Not) Within The Cosmos

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matthew 24:35

Jesus

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Philippians 2:7

Is

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Revelation 22:12-13

LORD

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:16-17

Is There Any Man Like The Son Of Man

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:11

Hallelujah~!

Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Psalms 103:1

[Guest shiloh357]

Yes, God has "experienced" what it is like to not be God." For God "experienced" this when he came down to this earth in the form of his Son Jesus Christ. Even though Christ was crucified it in no way meant that God ceased being God for that will never ever happen.

Isn't this self contradictory???

No, I do not think there are any contradiction.

Would you care to elaborate further ?

You said that God has never ceased to be God, and yet He has experienced what it is like to not be God. How? It can't be both.

Yes OC, you are trying to defend a position that is internally inconsistent. God cannot experience what it is like to not be God without first ceasing to be God. He would have to experience having no Deity at all. You are tyring broaden the definition of the experience to include being rejected by man, but that does not really work.

Omniscience does not require God to have had every possible experience in the universe. It does not require Him to experience personal sinfulness, or personal need. It does not require God to have any experience that would either contradict His Divine nature or compromise His holiness.

[other one]

name='godrulz' timestamp='1311964216' post='1701951'

name='Believer112' timestamp='1311898218' post='1701763'

name='shiloh357' timestamp='1311721352' post='1700925'

Tell me this...

The omniscience of God. Do you think it means that God has all possible knowledge (which would include all propositional and all experiential knowledge)? Or would it include only propositional knowledge?

1 John 3

²⁰For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart and knoweth all things.

I'm going to take this scripture by faith. God created a tree of knowledge (good and evil), so if He can create knowledge He is all knowing. Humans trying to figure out what God knows is like monkeys trying to figure out how we build cars.

You are not using faith, but presumption. The context shows that he knows all things in relation to something specific, our hearts (present knowledge; past knowledge). Other principles/passages/thinking would bring in limitation as to the extent of his future knowledge. Your view cannot be based on one verse out of context that contradicts other verses/concepts (where God does not know the future exhaustively).

A verse about God knowing our hearts totally (past/present knowledge) cannot be extrapolated to defend exhaustive definite foreknowledge of future free will contingencies (omniscience issue). Likewise, the verse that says that all things are possible with God is in a context of salvation and cannot be extrapolated to mean that He can create square circles (relates to omnipotence).

Your 'faith' becomes presumption and error if you misuse Scripture to beg the question about your own wrong views.

In the seventh or eighth dimension he may well be able to create square circles..... Outside the fourth dimension you may well have already decided to get up late tomorrow.... You have some very rigid views and I don't think they are as nearly as definite as you seem to express...... but that's my personal opinion and you're certainly owed the same privilege.

This is speculative, nonsensical. Why reject a defensible view from Scripture and logic and cling to a wrong view based on sci-fi?!

LoL ..... I don't think theoretical physics is Scifi. Steven Hawking would be offended.

[Guest]

Yes, God has "experienced" what it is like to not be God." For God "experienced" this when he came down to this earth in the form of his Son Jesus Christ. Even though Christ was crucified it in no way meant that God ceased being God for that will never ever happen.

Isn't this self contradictory???

No, I do not think there are any contradiction.

Would you care to elaborate further ?

You said that God has never ceased to be God, and yet He has experienced what it is like to not be God. How? It can't be both.

Yes OC, you are trying to defend a position that is internally inconsistent. God cannot experience what it is like to not be God without first ceasing to be God. He would have to experience having no Deity at all. You are trying to broaden the definition of the experience to include being rejected by man, but that does not really work.

Omniscience does not require God to have had every possible experience in the universe. It does not require Him to experience personal sinfulness, or personal need. It does not require God to have any experience that would either contradict His Divine nature or compromise His holiness.

What Kind Of Love

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

Is This?

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:19-21

[Believer112]

Yes, God has "experienced" what it is like to not be God." For God "experienced" this when he came down to this earth in the form of his Son Jesus Christ. Even though Christ was crucified it in no way meant that God ceased being God for that will never ever happen.

Isn't this self contradictory???

No, I do not think there are any contradiction.

Would you care to elaborate further ?

You said that God has never ceased to be God, and yet He has experienced what it is like to not be God. How? It can't be both.

Yes OC, you are trying to defend a position that is internally inconsistent. God cannot experience what it is like to not be God without first ceasing to be God. He would have to experience having no Deity at all. You are trying to broaden the definition of the experience to include being rejected by man, but that does not really work.

Omniscience does not require God to have had every possible experience in the universe. It does not require Him to experience personal sinfulness, or personal need. It does not require God to have any experience that would either contradict His Divine nature or compromise His holiness.

What Kind Of Love

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

Is This?

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:19-21

and

Romans 11:34

New King James Version (NKJV)

³⁴ “ For who has known the mind of the LORD?

[enoob57]

This is incoherent and unnecessary. You did not exist 6000 years ago. If your parents never freely mated, you would not exist and be known. The Psalmist talks about present knowledge of God seeing the real you in the womb. Time has no constraints is an uncritically accepted assumption leading to wrong conclusions. Time is unidirectional, even for God. Jesus is not on the cross perpetually and creation precedes Second Coming, even for God. Every page of the Bible shows God's history, His Story, chronological dealing with men in real, unfolding space-time history. Timelessness is an unbiblical, philosophical error. Take it away, and our view of omniscience becomes more coherent, biblical.

Really? Not according to God's Word...

Ex 3:14

14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

KJV

Deut 33:27a

27 The eternal God is your refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms;

NKJV

Ps 90:2

2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

NKJV

Rev 4:8

8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:

"Holy, holy, holy,

Lord God Almighty,

Who was and is and is to come!"

NKJV

So if in the beginning of His Word and in the middle of His Word and even right unto the end of His Word says The God of the Bible is without beginning and without end... Oh also He Warns-Rev 22:19

19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

NKJV

Love Steven

[JohnD]

1 Corinthians 2:7 (NIV)

7 No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. The other translations say before the eons of our glory or of this world but it states before this time line began regardless.

2 Peter 3:8 (NIV)

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Psalm 90:4 (NIV)

4 For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

Time to God is a relevance to us.

Edited August 1, 2011 by JohnDB

[godrulz]

This is incoherent and unnecessary. You did not exist 6000 years ago. If your parents never freely mated, you would not exist and be known. The Psalmist talks about present knowledge of God seeing the real you in the womb. Time has no constraints is an uncritically accepted assumption leading to wrong conclusions. Time is unidirectional, even for God. Jesus is not on the cross perpetually and creation precedes Second Coming, even for God. Every page of the Bible shows God's history, His Story, chronological dealing with men in real, unfolding space-time history. Timelessness is an unbiblical, philosophical error. Take it away, and our view of omniscience becomes more coherent, biblical.

Really? Not according to God's Word...

Ex 3:14

14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

KJV

Deut 33:27a

27 The eternal God is your refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms;

NKJV

Ps 90:2

2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

NKJV

Rev 4:8

8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:

"Holy, holy, holy,

Lord God Almighty,

Who was and is and is to come!"

NKJV

So if in the beginning of His Word and in the middle of His Word and even right unto the end of His Word says The God of the Bible is without beginning and without end... Oh also He Warns-Rev 22:19

19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

NKJV

Love Steven

Endless time, not timelessness. Thx for proving my point with tensed verses about God's eternality. He is without beginning and end, yet that does not mean He is timeless (incoherent and contrary to every page of Scripture that shows Him experiencing succession/succession/endless duration).

[Guest]

No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Corinthians 2:7 (NIV)

The other translations say before the eons of our glory or of this world. .... Time to God is a relevance to us.

Yes Dear Brother, Even Before Time Began

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace

that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.

And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,

to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—

to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. Ephesians 1:3-10 (NIV 1984)

Jesus

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.

None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 (NIV 1984)

Was The Reason

Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16 (NIV 1984)

For The Seasons

"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being." Revelation 4:11 (NIV 1984)

And Yes, God's Son IS The Relevance To Us

Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2 (NIV 1984)

____________

And Beloved To The Wise, Time Becomes Increasingly Important

Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Ephesians 5:14-16 (KJV)

____________

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (KJV)

Love, Your Brother Joe