Omniscience

[godrulz]

shiloh, if as I believe God is not bound by space and time and can simply look to see what will be in the future, i don't think i can separate experiential knowledge from priori Knoledge, or propositional knowledge whatever we want to call it.

i don't think I would know how to separate the two with Gods capabilities.

This assumes the Platonic/Augustinian 'eternal now' timeless simultaneity theory. The better model of time/eternity is endless time (duration, sequence, succession). Time is unidirectional. It is not space, a place, a created thing. The future is not there to see, even for an omniscient God. The film is still running, recording reality, not in the package already. The future is at least partially open/unsettled/unknown. God does know, settle, close some of the future, but other aspects are open and settled by creatures that He has given free will to. Adam vs God gave names to all the animals.

[godrulz]

shiloh, if as I believe God is not bound by space and time and can simply look to see what will be in the future, i don't think i can separate experiential knowledge from priori Knoledge, or propositional knowledge whatever we want to call it.

i don't think I would know how to separate the two with Gods capabilities.

well, not being bound by space and time would touch on omnipresence. God knows the future because in one sense he is already there. God looks at time as collective whole.

At any rate, I fail to see why it would be hard to differentiate between propostitional knowledge versus experiential knowledge.

This is begging the question. If your assumption about time/space is wrong (Einstein was not right about many things), then your conclusion does not follow. The future is not a place to visit. Time is not space. Time travel to past or future is an absurdity, even for God. If God is in the future seeing my yet future death, then man is not the agent actualizing the future. God would be micromanaging and controlling everything. The future would be fatalistically fixed and God could not change it even if He wanted to. The past, present, future are distinct. The potential, not yet future becomes the fixed past through the present.

A vs B theory of time (presentism vs eternalism) is more coherent with ramifications relating to omniscience. If you have only assumed/understood 'eternal now', then you might not see the nuances and complexities of these issues.

[godrulz]

No!!!!!!!

God also cannot microwave a burrito so hot that He cannot eat it.

He doesn't know what it is like be create a rock so big He cannot lift it, etc etc.

I think some perspectives on "all powerful" are a bit simplistic.

This is a valid point. The rock too heavy to lift is a logical absurdity, not a limitation on omnipotence. Likewise, exhaustive definite foreknowledge of future free will (libertarian) contingencies is also impossible and not a limitation on omniscience.

Omnipotence needs to be qualified by saying God can do all that is doable (some things are logically impossible for an omnipotent God....making married bachelors, square circles, etc.).

Omniscience needs to be qualified by saying God knows all that is knowable (some things are inherently unknowable, even for an omniscient God...without limiting His omniscience; to not know where Yoda is right now is not a limitation on His knowledge; God is not ignorant of anything, but things like the future are not objects of certain knowledge yet, unlike the past/present).

The issue is the nature of non-deterministic creation, not whether God is omniscient or not (He is).

Calvinism/determinism; Arminianism/simple foreknowledge; Molinism/middle knowledge and counterfactuals of freedom; and Open Theism (knows some vs all of the future two motifs) are the main players.

www.opentheism.info After 30 years of study, this is the most biblical, coherent view in my mind.

[godrulz]

Does God know what it is like to be female?

because he lives in you.....

OK - how about before the giving of the Spirit living in us?

Remember he has no time constraints..... he knew you 6,000 years ago... and I'll bet it made him smile Remember when he had finished creation and said that it was good. He knew you then.

This is incoherent and unnecessary. You did not exist 6000 years ago. If your parents never freely mated, you would not exist and be known. The Psalmist talks about present knowledge of God seeing the real you in the womb. Time has no constraints is an uncritically accepted assumption leading to wrong conclusions. Time is unidirectional, even for God. Jesus is not on the cross perpetually and creation precedes Second Coming, even for God. Every page of the Bible shows God's history, His Story, chronological dealing with men in real, unfolding space-time history. Timelessness is an unbiblical, philosophical error. Take it away, and our view of omniscience becomes more coherent, biblical.

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh, if as I believe God is not bound by space and time and can simply look to see what will be in the future, i don't think i can separate experiential knowledge from priori Knoledge, or propositional knowledge whatever we want to call it.

i don't think I would know how to separate the two with Gods capabilities.

well, not being bound by space and time would touch on omnipresence. God knows the future because in one sense he is already there. God looks at time as collective whole.

At any rate, I fail to see why it would be hard to differentiate between propostitional knowledge versus experiential knowledge.

This is begging the question. If your assumption about time/space is wrong (Einstein was not right about many things), then your conclusion does not follow. The future is not a place to visit. Time is not space. Time travel to past or future is an absurdity, even for God. If God is in the future seeing my yet future death, then man is not the agent actualizing the future. God would be micromanaging and controlling everything. The future would be fatalistically fixed and God could not change it even if He wanted to. The past, present, future are distinct. The potential, not yet future becomes the fixed past through the present.

A vs B theory of time (presentism vs eternalism) is more coherent with ramifications relating to omniscience. If you have only assumed/understood 'eternal now', then you might not see the nuances and complexities of these issues.

God views time in a similar manner to the way we view a parade from the top of a 10 story building vs. view the parade from the perspective of the person on te ground who can only see what is in front of them. The analogy is not tight, as God not only views the parade but also governs the route and those who participate. God is not limited to the parameters of linear time. He is stands outside the universe and outside time.

He also does not have exhaustive definite foreknowledge of future free will contingencies because they do not exist to be known.

That is not true. In the Scriptures, God predicts events that will occur that He does not cause to occur and occur at the free will of the group or individual. You are advocating for open theism, which limits God to what can be known in linear time.

[Guest]

Simple answer. God knows everything, no matter how we want to categorize it. There is nothing that exists that He did not create.

Do you think God possesses all possible experiential knowledge? Do you know what I mean when I use the term, "propositional knowledge" and how it differs from experiential knowledge?

Do you think that you can have a thought that God hasn't had way before you existed?

No, but that doesn't really answer the question. What I am asking is whether or not anyone thinks that omniscience must include experiential knowledge, or if it only applies to propositional knowledge (the knowledge of what is).

But I did answer the question. I think that God's omniscience does and in fact must include both experiential and propositional knowledge or He would not be omniscient. He would have incomplete omniscience. Our God possesses all knowledge, which includes all what if's.

No, you didn't answer the question. You responded to me with a question and avoided my direct question about whether or not you underestood the difference between propositional and experiential knowledge. You then asked me if I had a thought that God had never had before I existed, which really was not material to the issue.

Round and round the mulberry bush, the monkey chased the weasel.....yes, I understand the difference between the two words. OK?

Hey, you are the one who kept it going. If you would have just said "yes" the first time, there would have been no mulberry bush.

Whatever, dude.

[Guest shiloh357]

Tell me this...

The omniscience of God. Do you think it means that God has all possible knowledge (which would include all propositional and all experiential knowledge)? Or would it include only propositional knowledge?

What do you mean by prop vs exper?

Propositional Knowledge = Knowing that bicycles exist and can be ridden.

Experiential Knowledge = Knowing how to ride a bicycle and getting out and actually riding it.

Does omniscience extend to having had every possible experience that can be had?

[other one]

shiloh, if as I believe God is not bound by space and time and can simply look to see what will be in the future, i don't think i can separate experiential knowledge from priori Knoledge, or propositional knowledge whatever we want to call it.

i don't think I would know how to separate the two with Gods capabilities.

well, not being bound by space and time would touch on omnipresence. God knows the future because in one sense he is already there. God looks at time as collective whole.

At any rate, I fail to see why it would be hard to differentiate between propostitional knowledge versus experiential knowledge.

This is begging the question. If your assumption about time/space is wrong (Einstein was not right about many things), then your conclusion does not follow. The future is not a place to visit. Time is not space. Time travel to past or future is an absurdity, even for God. If God is in the future seeing my yet future death, then man is not the agent actualizing the future. God would be micromanaging and controlling everything. The future would be fatalistically fixed and God could not change it even if He wanted to. The past, present, future are distinct. The potential, not yet future becomes the fixed past through the present.

A vs B theory of time (presentism vs eternalism) is more coherent with ramifications relating to omniscience. If you have only assumed/understood 'eternal now', then you might not see the nuances and complexities of these issues.

There is a very big difference in God seeing what you will do next week, and God being responsible for the decisions you make. The future is fatalistically fixed because you will make those decisions and he can simply see what you decided to do.

That's why we know what will happen with all the visions that John saw and reported in the book of Revelation....... He was there.

[Shiloh62]

Tell me this...

The omniscience of God. Do you think it means that God has all possible knowledge (which would include all propositional and all experiential knowledge)? Or would it include only propositional knowledge?

I think it means He has all possible knowledge.

[oak]

Ok, lets make it to the point. Did you write what is in Italics with my lettering (a, b etc.)?

a)God has never experienced what it is to be sinful, because God never sinned.

b)God has never experienced what it is to be created or to cease to exist, as God is eternal.

c)God has never experienced what it is to not be God, as He has always been God.

e)God has never experienced any personal need, as He has always been entirely self-sufficient and in need of nothing.

Of Course you did. your assertions are implying that you know God’s Mind and Abilities.

a) Could God have a Characteristic that makes him know sin better than humans and makes Him have more experiential knowledge than us. Secondly Christ took up all the wotlds sin on the cross. The profound nature of just that can include the experiental knowledge of sin and taking it on punishment for the sin. You can't unequivocally say no.Third the Holy Spirit is within us, He is not sinning but feels are temptation and sin action. "...but the Spirit intercedes for us with groaning too deep for words." Rom 8:26 Does that not sound like experienial knowledge?

b -c) Christ for our sakes became human and was born in a human womb.. The Nician Council holds that Christ is fully human and fully God. We don't know how The Trinity's exactly share their union.

d) But there must be some reason God made humans and angels. It may be expressed by something in God's nature that we don't fully understand.

from previos post:

Also you’re implying that you know God’s Mind and Every Purpose? (Oak)

No, that is what you are trying to assign to me. I have neither implied nor indicated any such thing. (shiloh)

Yes you did by seeing him from your human perspective. Further, I believe God has many qualities that we don't know yet understand that includes experiential knowledge (Oak)

Oak