The possibly False teachings of OSAS and Eternal Security

[Guest]

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

demonstrates is not past tense. God is not stuck in time like we are, He is eternal and does not change

Romans 5:8

[Fez]

GOD " loved " meaning it is FINISHED ! (past tense) You have not shown me where HE " loves ". I know there are many passages stating GODs " love " however that is not was i was talking about.

Just so I understand. You are saying God no longer loves us?

[Guest]

In regards to your statement that GOD does not hate the way i am implying; the GOD i know and the GOD of the Bible sends people straight to hell....

Sir, You Slander The LORD And Mock The Blood Of Christ

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1 John 4:8-10

For The God Of The Bible

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Desires Mercy

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. Hosea 6:6

And Fellowship

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

And Still He Waits And He Calls

It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness. Lamentation 3:22-23

Come Sinner, Come

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17

~

Believe

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

And Blessed Beloved

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Joe

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

[Botz]

I can remember the first time I heard Once Saved, Always Saved. It was like music to my ears when it was explained that if you follow God, accept the salvation brought by Jesus, and allow Jesus to be Lord of your life, you will make it to heaven. Then when I spoke to someone who did not believe in OSAS, they asked me the same question Shiloh is asking. Can I use my salvation as a ticket to continue to live in sin the rest of my life. The answer was No, because that would be in contradiction to living a life where you love the Lord you God with all your heart, all you soul, all your mind and all you strength.

As I continue to think about this, I am still convinced that if you are a true Christian, you will turn from sin every time, trying to stand steadfast in Him. In this, I agree with Shiloh and against those who feel they can life a life of a dog and still enter into His rest. Yet, I am also of the belief that if I am a true Christian, I will always remain saved.

It all depends on how the term is defined. I believe that is the key to solving this issue here, what is the definition each of us are using? Are they the same, or are we going off on our own definition, causing discord because of this?

I can see why the first time you heard the OSAS doctrine it was like music to your ears because it tickled them.

Forgive me if I just jump in and answer this first point you make....and if I may say so, the conclusion you draw is pretty uncharitable.

If it was me you were addressing, I would respond and tell you that hearing such a teaching was like a breath of fresh air because it struck a chord in my heart that suddenly melted all of

my striving to live a good life as a Believer, it took away something of the heaviness I had struggled under, especially when I sinned a few times, so much so that I wondered if I really

was saved. That statement helped express the enormity of the Saviours love for me as an individual and began to line up with the Word of G-d so much more than I had ever seen in

the past...I could see clearly that my state of salvation was an eternal gift given to me when I believed on Jesus, and that I NEVER had to fear again that I would be back in the state

of sin and unbelief that I knew before I was saved....it was a lovely cleansing word of truth, and far from giving me license to do what I liked, even sinning, was the motivation to try

and follow Jesus with all my heart...and to know that if I fell I had an Advocate with the Father.

I came to understand that when the Word of G-d said I had been 'reborn'...then I had actually been reborn, and nothing could unbirth me.

I came to see that no one could pluck me from my Fathers hand.

I realised that there was no condemnation held over me or put to my account.

I was actually free to rejoice in my salvation in fulness of joy, and to know that G-d loved me and rejoiced over me, because

He saw an individual washed in the Saviours blood, a sheep of the Shepherd.

My ears were not 'tickled' my ears heard, and my spirit rejoiced in G-d my Saviour.

Well forgive me but Christ did not come to bring peace but a sword -Mat10:34 If this doctrine struck a chord in your heart Botz then i would be concerned because your heart is " deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: " and i certainly would not trust it -Jer17:9 I am not saying you are saved or you are not, i am saying this OSAS doctrine does not line up with Scripture and i am not here seeking to "people please" but only to voice what i believe to be the truth. I also do not believe in some long haired hippy JESUS who loves everyone, my GOD is Holy, a GOD of Judgement and a consuming fire ! Its been very interesting to see that some of you people who have been on this site for quite a long time seem to play a school yard type of "in crowd" mentality. I have asked quite a few questions on this post but very few have been answered and for some reason Botz, there seems to be a lack of love to those who are new on here and may not be in your clique. I guess this is how we ended up with so many "denominations" and many in the churches who seek the high places, lead and lord it over others and love the preeminence.

Hi TLF,

Praise G-d for your testimony...you too are a sinner saved by grace.

I have friends here who do not share my understanding of salvation and see the gift of eternal life as conditional eg. dependant upon living a righteous life and producing works that both

accompany salvation and are the visible proof of salvation...I do not accuse them of anything, I do not feel the need to justify my position and quote Scripture at them, but I am always

glad to compare notes and see why we have come to different conclusions if the need arises. My friend you want to hammer me into the ground until I see how right you are....do you

honestly think the Gospel gives you the right.

I'm glad you are not a 'people pleaser'...most of us here are with you on that.

I don't understand your reference to a 'hippy Jesus'...nor your need to contrast this picture with that of G-d being 'Holy, a GOD of Judgement and a consuming fire' as if you

are passing on some personal revelation that has by-passed the rest of us....I could just as easily find many passages that contrast with wrath and judgement and demonstrate His

enduring love and compassion. My impression is that there is something in you that feels the need to major on some of the harsher aspects of the eternal L-rd...so much so that

you have a rather unbalanced understanding of our Heavenly Father...my advice for what its worth ... is that you also begin to see that the love of G-d is the first commandment, and it

is impossible to love Him if we have a distorted understanding of His nature and His character....try spending some quality time meditating on His goodness.

As for your other observations ....a school-yard mentality...yes it happens sometimes.

People enjoying 'lording it over others'...not so much from what I see here.

Lack of love towards others...yes it occurs unfortunately, and yes there can be a 'cliqueness' here at times.

I think some of the things you have asked haven't been answered for any number of reasons....I often post and get

no responses at times...hey that's life. Also if you post really long posts, people tend to skip over them as we just

don't have the time ...but if you break them down more you might get a better response.

Anyway if you are going to continue here TLF try being less judgmental...you are in a fairly diverse community of people, we all have our faults...including you.

I'm sure you have a lot to offer if only you allow some of the grace G-d extended to you to also reach out to your brethren.

Kind regards. Botz

[enoob57]

You were not asked the question but seeing as though you interjected Steven, and you have not answered it either. Where in Scripture apart from the 2 places that i mentioned does it say GOD LOVE(S) ? why do some of you rush in to make yourself sound wise when in the end it becomes foolishness ? I did not ask about " love " because i know there are many .......

Perhaps because God enjoys this

1 Cor 1:27

27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;

NKJV

A man cannot be elevated in his own eyes and see God also! I was merely trying to show you God can say loved but also let it naturally carry into eternity.... just like me I was begun in Him long before I ever was! You should know that God 'IS' outside of time

and has clearly taught us His love is without limits as He for He has said of Himself 'God 'IS' Love'.

What I wonder more about more is your seemly lack of it in your demeanor and how clearly you despise much and love little! We can read into anything our own ideas and yours are clearly on the attack of almost everything it seems! What is going on with you that has caused this caustic type behavior? Re-learn to love those for whom Christ has died and risen again for!

2 Tim 2:24-26

24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

NKJV

There are many beautiful people here and have enriched my life tremendously by their writings... they are not perfect, as all except One, (me in the big fat middle of this fact of imperfection)... yet God's perfection covers us, (all who have cried out to Christ Jesus for it) and I have found it a marvelous freedom and joy! Love, Steven

[Arthur Durnan]

So will our kind friends from the " S.RL.RS.RL.RS." Camp (Saved, ReLost,ReSaved, ReLost,ReSaved) please inform us how many times according to Holy Writ that we can be saved? I had always thot Jesus said (and surely meant) "Ye must be born again!" (John 3), not "again, and again, and again." Hmm, this "S.RL.RS.RL.RS." philosophy (which underscores the one Calvary without the power to save forever) comes across as a singularly maladroit event. Better luck next time, sinner friend, eh, what?

[Guest shiloh357]

Please Shiloh give me your defense of your OSAS doctrine and also please give me your interpretation on this commentary by truthinscripture.com , i would really appreciate it.

I am not defending OSAS. I believe in Eternal Security and they are two completely different points of view. Unfortunately, people like you refuse to take the time to understand the difference. You just want to lump the two views together as if they were the same thing, and as I discussed above, they are not.

Hebrews 10:36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

That verse is not talking about salvation. Salvation is not a reward. Salvation is not the result of endurance. Salvaton is a gift of God's grace that is given freely. We do not earn or "win" salvation.

Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

The promise of eternal life can be received right now when you believe in Jesus with a pure heart. To actually attain the promise we must do the will of God and endure to the very end to be saved. The will of God is described as listening to God’s son and being purified of all sin. Unless we overcome sin in our lives, Jesus will indeed erase our names from the Book of Life and we will not enter the Kingdom of God.

That is not what Jesus is saying. The verse says that the person who OVERCOMES shall not have their name erased. The person who overcomes is the person who believes and trusts in Jesus Christ (I John 5:4-5). The word for "will not" is a double negative that means "I will not, no, never..." meaning that the person who receives Jesus will NEVER have his name removed from the Lamb's book of life. It is not a warning about losing salvation. It is an assurance that the Christian will NEVER have His Name removed from the book of life.

SEcondly the author makes another glaring theological error. He draws a false dichotomy between receiving salvation and obtaining salvation. There is no such teaching in Scripture. The Bible says I can KNOW TODAY that HAVE salvation:

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

(1Jn 5:10-13)

In addition the believer has the Holy Spirit within himself testifying that he is a child of God. Ephesians 1;14 teaches that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance. The notion that obtain salvation at a later time AFTER we receive it is unbiblical. Eternal life is NOW it is present tense and the authentic beleiver has eternal life today as a personal possession.

This "commentary" is a theological trainwreck.

I don't have the time to respond to all of it at this moment, as it is quite long, but will revisit today, as I have opportunity.

You said quote "That is not what Jesus is saying. The verse says that the person who OVERCOMES shall not have their name erased. The person who overcomes is the person who believes and trusts in Jesus Christ (I John 5:4-5). " Why do you gloss over the word "overcomes" which is a continual and means to endure to the finish ? Why would you think that Rev3:5 is not one whole sentence and think Christ was not meaning what HE actually said regarding being blotted out of the book of Life ? You must be in the book of life first before you can be blotted out, right ? Is Christ JESUS just bluffing or is HE saying here what HE actually does not mean ?

Sorry, but "overcome" does not mean endure to the finish (end). The "overcome" is defined by Scripture as believing and trusting in Jesus. It has nothing to do with enduring to the end. It does possess of a continuous sense, but it refers not to a continuous act, butto exist a continuous, present tense state of victory. Once you have ovecome by playing your trust and faith in Christ, you will live in a perpetualy victorious state in which your name will never be blotted out of the book of life. Revelation 3:5 is simply an affirmation of the eternal truth that our victory over death and sin is found in Christ and not in human effort or merit.

To me the English language speaks for itself WITHOUT need for interpretation or " this is what this means and that is what that means" arguments....

You simply don't want anyone to confuse you with the facts...

You are interpreting the passage each time you come on here and offer your opinion on what the text means. You are interpretting every bit as much as anyone else is. The problem is that you are applying a very shallow, face-value approach to the text in English. Your arguments can't stand up to scrutiny when we examine the Greek text in which the author actually penned the text. When we examine what the author intended to say from the Greek we discover that it is not enough to apply a shallow face-value approach to the english text.

You don't get it Shilo357, i DO NOT NEED TO BE A GREEK SCHOLAR, if you are wiser and more scholarly than the translators of the KJV then thats your problem not mine. i have my 1611 Authorized King James Bible and it is in ENGLISH and has stood for the last 400 years !. Not only that, but i trust that it is REALLY GOD's Word and i believe EVERYTHING in it ! . I am not a RABBI, i am not a SCHOLAR, i am a SINNER saved by grace through faith ! I have a trust in the translators of my Bible and if i have a problem with ANY word then i grab my dictionary. IT IS SO SIMPLE and i thank GOD for that. GOD did not call me because i was wise but because i was a FOOL ! -1Cor1:26 Be very careful that you be not wise in your own eyes(Prov3:7) or " Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." 1 Cor10:12.....

You are the one who doesn't get it. I am not contradicting the KJV at all. I am contradicting YOUR handling of the KJV text. I am not a Greek scholar, but the KJV shcolars were and not even they would appreciate your mishandling of the text. In the KJV, "overcomer" is defined this way; "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" So, working from that definition, the person who believes that Jesus is the Son of God, will not have their name blotted out of the Book of Life, according to Rev. 3:5. There is no other way around it.

The problem is that you cannot offer any refutation of those facts, so you have to go on some breathless rant about the KJV in order to deflect attention away from your inability to actually address me argument. The problem is not what translation that is being used. It is not about being a Greek scholar. It is about a proper handling of the text. Even the KJV supports the view that those who have placed their faith in Jesus can be at peace and have assurance that God is not going to change His mind rescind salvation.

[Guest shiloh357]

I really dislike categorising ALL anti-ES'ers that way.

I don't think I have categorized anyone. But I have over 9 years of threads that demonstrate that the anti-ES crowd overwhelmingly sees OSAS/ES as a license to sin. You need to be trying to convince them that they have the wrong working definition.

I am anti-ES and I don't define OSAS that way and nor do I believe that a genuine Christian will behave like they have a licence to sin.

Well then you and I have to have a separate debate based on how YOU define it. Because not ONE other anti-ES person on this board sees it the way you do. You are completely unique

It's a bit like letting an atheist define what Christianity is....

No, its not. Anti-ES folks made up the label. The folks who made up the label are in the best position to define it. In the Evolution debates, when it came to defining what Evolution is, I have always deffered to Evolutionists. I did not defer to Creationists to tell me what evolution is or is not. In the same way, anti-ES folks created a characitature of ES and I think they should be have to accountable for how they mischaracterize ES. It was a label that really over-simplifies ES and the doctrine of salvation.

You will not find anyone in the academic theologcal community that uses the term OSAS. They don't use it because it is not genuine doctrine. Academic theologians use either Perseverenace of the Saints or they refer to Eternal Security. OSAS is a lay term usually batted around by those who do not understand ES and are usually anti-ES.

those that actually hold the affirmative belief get to define what they believe. So you can define ES, but you can't define OSAS, and you certainly can't throw such charges at all anti-ES people.

Again, what I am saying is backed up the anti-ES people on this board, minus you. Why should YOUR defintion overrule theirs??

If ES is predicated on being a genuinely saved Christian, the argument is redundant. It's a bit like saying Christians are Christians .

no, it is not redundant and I have already explained why, numerous times. You attempt to oversimplify my position is not going to work.

[enoob57]

So will our kind friends from the " S.RL.RS.RL.RS." Camp (Saved, ReLost,ReSaved, ReLost,ReSaved) please inform us how many times according to Holy Writ that we can be saved? I had always thot Jesus said (and surely meant) "Ye must be born again!" (John 3), not "again, and again, and again." Hmm, this "S.RL.RS.RL.RS." philosophy (which underscores the one Calvary without the power to save forever) comes across as a singularly maladroit event. Better luck next time, sinner friend, eh, what?

Oh no and what if a coronary at the RL side??? What a spin on the wheel of life .... tic toc tic toc-> the pressure of keeping one's self saved must be a tremendous burden... What could ever have been meant by this

Matt 11:25-30

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

NKJV

It just doesn't fit with teaching.... Love, Steven

[OneLight]

I grew up with violence, i became an alcoholic drug addict at an early age. I began fighting on the streets and spent over half my life killing myself at my own hand and justifying it. I had no self control and had become dangerously antisocial and could not go anywhere without being in conflict with someone. Its a long story, however, i was converted and saved 14 years ago when at the end of myself and on the verge of wanting to kill someone i cried out to GOD in desperation and fear for my life and sanity. HE heard my cry and i had a powerful conversion and knew then that this was the GOD of the preachers and this was the true and living GOD. I will never forget being filled with the Holy Spirit, the overwhelming feeling of love and forgiveness and how good it was to be delivered from SELF, fear, anger, the bondage of alcohol and drugs, phobia's complexes, suicidal depression etc. I ran around town telling everyone about GOD and Christ JESUS how HE had saved me, how great HE was but they did not want to know and many thought i had really lost my mind. From that time onward, the LORD had impressed upon me to pick up the Bible to study His word, and it was His word that revealed to me the very things that HE had done and was doing in my life.

The fact is, i was an enemy of GOD before i became born again, and i was in a very dark place before i was transformed into light. My testimony is what i have and the fruit of His transforming grace in my life the last 14 years is a miracle. So i was NOT saved by fire and brimstone preaching but by GOD alone, so your guess is wrong. If it was Christs love that drew you then good for you but for me i had to DIE to SELF and forsake everything to follow Him. To insinuate that i would be better to PEOPLE PLEASE to be accepted into your interpretation of the body of Christ is an insult. There is one thing i have learnt these last 14 years and that is MANY come professing Christ quoting scriptures and feigning Christianity when only FEW are His. You say that i was " ranting " that GOD is Holy and a consuming fire, and in your condesending way even saying that "when it is His will to be so " Is it not His NATURE rather than His will o wise one, to be who HE is ?

In regards your comment re; loving, long haired hippy JESUS , i would say that GOD is Angry at the wicked every day-Ps7:11 and if you think HE loves everyone then you are deceived. GOD hated Esau for a start, we are to love our enemies not the wicked ! and please do not end your reply with "in His peace and love " because we both know you do not mean it Alan......

I gave you the information about when I first heard OSAS, and not my life story. You may be surprised to know how much we lived the same life. I was a drug addict for 38 years, in and out of rehab, mental institutions where there were no rehabs, and prisons around the US. I turned from Christ as a teenager, since I had not given myself to Him, but was just a pew setter in my early years. But my testimony is for another time. We all have to die to ourselves before being born again in the Spirit, so we all have this in common.

You ask if it is His nature to be Holy? Yes, it is. You ask if it is His nature to be a "consuming fire", yes it is. What you did not ask is if He is always dealing with His creation in this manner? God does not love us only in a past tense, but also a present and future tense. Does He love our sin? Absolutely not, and this is where His anger lies, at the sin. His consuming fire purges the sin from us, through the regeneration process His Holy Spirit does in our lives. He is far more then a vengeful angry God sitting on His throne in heaven, ready to strike us all down who sin. God is also a forgiving God who see the hearts of every man and moves according to His will, not ours.

I ask you again why did Jesus tell us to love our enemies? Why would God ask such a thing if He Himself does not?

I also will suggest that you calm down with you accusations toward your brothers and sises here. There is no need for anyone to have a chip on their shoulder. You do sound angry in your replies. Give it to God and let it go.

I leave you with this verse to ponder over:

Colossians 4:6

Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.

In His Love,

Alan