Can you prove salvation

[saved34]

99% of the people I have spoken to believe that they are saved. Not even 25% agree with each other upon how one is saved. Galatians 5 says heretics will not inherit the kingdom of God. Jesus said many are called but few chosen. Paul told timothy that if a man removes all heresy from himself he is a vessel unto honor. I ask the same question Taylor30 does, what will become of the one who doesn't fight temptation?

Gary

I spend a lot of time wondering about that. Since works CANNOT earn or keep salvation, you CANNOT use works as a fair measurement. And works can be manufactured. Even unbelievers perform wonderful works sometimes. It is also true that we don't lose our free will at conversion. Therefore I believe we MUST consider the possibility that a Christian CAN choose to live in sin. Since scripture claims we are saved ONLY by faith and accepting the gift of salvation, it is quite confusing that a person who sincerely asks for forgiveness and then lives in sin COULD be saved.

I think saying a Christian "chooses to live in sin" is too strong. I do not believe for one second that a born again believer will choose to live in sin. What can happen is a believer may be over come by sin or temptation. He may wallow in sin for a season, but he does not choose to live in sin. There are factors in his life that will hinder this. He has a new nature from God that is completely dedicated to God. It desires nothing but to do God's will. It was created in righteousness and holiness.

Rom 7:22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

Eph 4:24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

A believer will never be content to just stay in sin. The comforter(Holy Spirit) will press him to turn. He will not allow the believer to comfortably live in sin. Then the discipline of God. He will correct as needed. A believer will either come to his senses, or God will do it for him. This can result in him allowing satan to destroy the flesh with sickness, or even God may take this person home in physical death.

1Co 11:31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.

1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

1Co 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

Heb 12:8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

The major issue to me is, a believer in his zeal tries to "appease" God through his good efforts. He has not come to the realization that he has peace with God through Christ. He still views God as some outside task master who weighs his good with his bad and has him under some kind of brutal mandate where he can be dropped if he is not living up to snuff. He is basically placing himself under the law and not seeing himself as alive to God (apart from his works). This only incites the flesh to do even more evil and now he is caught in a vicious cycle of a defiled conscious, and ignorance on how to live right. He must recon himself alive to God through Jesus Christ. Apart from law, apart from works, apart from any effort on his part. Through that freedom of conscious he can now begin to grow and truly serve God. It is the hardest thing in the world to get the conscious settled that God is at peace with you, God is with you now. You do not have to appease him as the pagans do with their false gods. He see's you in Christ, you are free from the slavery of a works based salvation (if you do good, you live, do bad, you die). You can now serve God, not for life, but because you have life and are a member of his family.

i must disagree. If we ARE set free from sin at conversion because of the power of Christ, and scripture says we are NEVER given more than we can take, then ALL sins a christian commits are by choice. We are set free, so we CHOOSE to sin. We can no longer blame satan or anything but ourselves.

You are right Taylor, but there are times when a man can be overtaken by Temptation. Not through any fault of God, because as you said, he provides the way of escape, unfortunately we do not always utilize his way of escape. There are times when we are tempted by things that our inner man (our true self) absolutely abhors, but we succumb to it and fall flat on our faces.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.

Jas 3:2 For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

If by choose, you mean we do not always utilize God's strength and provisions, then I can agree that we are choosing, but if you mean a born one chooses a lifestyle of sin, as if he enjoys it, I have to say that is foreign to scripture. Through ignorance of the delivering power of God a believer can fall into sin but I guarantee he hates it, and cries out with Paul "Oh wretched man that I am". His nature will not let him "choose" sin. The heaviness of temptation makes it feel like sin still has power when it really doesn't.

1Jn 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[taylor30]

99% of the people I have spoken to believe that they are saved. Not even 25% agree with each other upon how one is saved. Galatians 5 says heretics will not inherit the kingdom of God. Jesus said many are called but few chosen. Paul told timothy that if a man removes all heresy from himself he is a vessel unto honor. I ask the same question Taylor30 does, what will become of the one who doesn't fight temptation?

Gary

I spend a lot of time wondering about that. Since works CANNOT earn or keep salvation, you CANNOT use works as a fair measurement. And works can be manufactured. Even unbelievers perform wonderful works sometimes. It is also true that we don't lose our free will at conversion. Therefore I believe we MUST consider the possibility that a Christian CAN choose to live in sin. Since scripture claims we are saved ONLY by faith and accepting the gift of salvation, it is quite confusing that a person who sincerely asks for forgiveness and then lives in sin COULD be saved.

I think saying a Christian "chooses to live in sin" is too strong. I do not believe for one second that a born again believer will choose to live in sin. What can happen is a believer may be over come by sin or temptation. He may wallow in sin for a season, but he does not choose to live in sin. There are factors in his life that will hinder this. He has a new nature from God that is completely dedicated to God. It desires nothing but to do God's will. It was created in righteousness and holiness.

Rom 7:22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

Eph 4:24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

A believer will never be content to just stay in sin. The comforter(Holy Spirit) will press him to turn. He will not allow the believer to comfortably live in sin. Then the discipline of God. He will correct as needed. A believer will either come to his senses, or God will do it for him. This can result in him allowing satan to destroy the flesh with sickness, or even God may take this person home in physical death.

1Co 11:31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.

1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

1Co 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

Heb 12:8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

The major issue to me is, a believer in his zeal tries to "appease" God through his good efforts. He has not come to the realization that he has peace with God through Christ. He still views God as some outside task master who weighs his good with his bad and has him under some kind of brutal mandate where he can be dropped if he is not living up to snuff. He is basically placing himself under the law and not seeing himself as alive to God (apart from his works). This only incites the flesh to do even more evil and now he is caught in a vicious cycle of a defiled conscious, and ignorance on how to live right. He must recon himself alive to God through Jesus Christ. Apart from law, apart from works, apart from any effort on his part. Through that freedom of conscious he can now begin to grow and truly serve God. It is the hardest thing in the world to get the conscious settled that God is at peace with you, God is with you now. You do not have to appease him as the pagans do with their false gods. He see's you in Christ, you are free from the slavery of a works based salvation (if you do good, you live, do bad, you die). You can now serve God, not for life, but because you have life and are a member of his family.

i must disagree. If we ARE set free from sin at conversion because of the power of Christ, and scripture says we are NEVER given more than we can take, then ALL sins a christian commits are by choice. We are set free, so we CHOOSE to sin. We can no longer blame satan or anything but ourselves.

You are right Taylor, but there are times when a man can be overtaken by Temptation. Not through any fault of God, because as you said, he provides the way of escape, unfortunately we do not always utilize his way of escape. There are times when we are tempted by things that our inner man (our true self) absolutely abhors, but we succumb to it and fall flat on our faces.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.

Jas 3:2 For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

If by choose, you mean we do not always utilize God's strength and provisions, then I can agree that we are choosing, but if you mean a born one chooses a lifestyle of sin, as if he enjoys it, I have to say that is foreign to scripture. Through ignorance of the delivering power of God a believer can fall into sin but I guarantee he hates it, and cries out with Paul "Oh wretched man that I am". His nature will not let him "choose" sin. The heaviness of temptation makes it feel like sin still has power when it really doesn't.

1Jn 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I must disagree with your 2nd paragraph. If we TRULY hate our sins, se would NOT allow ourselves to commit them. Since no person lives without sin, we obviously ALL have sins we refuse to give up. Our sins are ALWAYS a choice and ALWAYS our fault.

[saved34]

I must disagree with your 2nd paragraph. If we TRULY hate our sins, se would NOT allow ourselves to commit them. Since no person lives without sin, we obviously ALL have sins we refuse to give up. Our sins are ALWAYS a choice and ALWAYS our fault

Taylor, you must understand that when we are saved we have two natures. One from Adam, and the new nature from God. These are in direct opposition of each other. You need to at least back up your statements with scripture. Here is what I am saying. It is the nature of sin. A born one does not practice sin. There is a possibility of sinning and still hating it. If you deny this I do not know what else to say as I only have scripture to stand on and not what I feel about a situation.

Rom 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

Rom 7:16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

Rom 7:17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Rom 7:21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

[Botz]

As a sinful human being that loves the L-rd, I have gradually discovered that every day truly is a new day...yesterday has gone forever.

I have learnt that sanctification is an ongoing aspect of my salvation, and that there will always be ways in which I can improve upon

the person that I am as I allow myself to embrace the changes G-d wants to bring into my life through trust in Him, obedience

to His word and the personal revelation of the Holy Spirit to me as an individual.

There have been times where I have wallowed in my sinfulness, condemned myself, discounted myself and doubted my ability to live

a godly and productive life as a Believer...I don't believe I am alone in expressing this, and that it is something we all face together

in various forms throughout periods of our life.

However...in this ongoing work of sanctification there is a constant reminder in the Scriptures that being a Believer does not exempt

you from personal responsibility to work out your salvation with fear and trembling...in other words to take it seriously and to open

our spiritual eyes and see exactly how great a salvation Jesus has accomplished on our behalf, and what a gift of mercy it is that we

should be called 'sons' of G-d.

We do not automatically stop sinning when we believe, but we now have the capability to choose to live righteously and to learn

what it is to be led by the Spirit and not to be led by the Flesh...this is a daily continual choice of life-style and thought-process

that will be a permanent fixture until we die...even the hermits and ascetics learnt that they could hide away from people and the

temptations within society in monestaries, caves or spend years living on a platform at the top of a pole...but they could never get

away from themselves....as a Believer, neither can you evade G-ds Spirit.

Psalm 139:

7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?

Or where can I flee from Your presence?

8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there;

If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

9 If I take the wings of the dawn,

If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,

10 Even there Your hand will lead me,

And Your right hand will lay hold of me.

11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will overwhelm me,

And the light around me will be night,”

12 Even the darkness is not dark to You,

And the night is as bright as the day.

Darkness and light are alike to You.

Part of our sanctification involves the development of our character which I have discovered (I say discovered, because until you actually appropriate Scripture

for yourself, it remains untried and untested...just words and is of no benefit until like gold ore it is mined and refined) takes time and determination...it stems

from a work of faith in a Believers heart, that is provoked and stimulated by another work of the Spirit...the desire to be Holy...to be more like our Heavenly Father.

There are many things that will rob you of your peace, your hope, your vision and your calling, but as we allow the Word of G-d to speak to us and to change us,

especially in the way we think and so easily take the path of least resistance...my experience is that peace and joy will follow, and many of the promises to be found

in the Bible will begin to become a reality whereas at one time they were barely perceived and never touched.

What I believe is one of the greatest missing ingredients in the Body of Messiah in these days is 'character'...people join prayer lines in an attempt to by-pass this

work of the Spirit and think they can instantly get a dose of character...some Pastors actually offer to pray for people in this way....but there are many aspects of

a Believers walk that require personal responsibility, and like Rome, they will not be built in a day.

Romans 5:1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Romans 6: 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Floatingaxe]

This may seem like an odd question, however I have had doubts about my own salvation for years. When I do good, I feel like I am trying to earn salvation. When I do bad, I feel like I couldn't have done those things if I were saved. I have sincerely prayed for salvation literally hundreds of times, and still there is no change.

So my question is this

Is it possible to prove that you are saved, or is there something that a saved person does that a lost person woud never do? Please provide a scriptural answer.

Can you tell us what salvation is based on, in your understanding? What kind of a change are you looking for?

[vax]

This may seem like an odd question, however I have had doubts about my own salvation for years. When I do good, I feel like I am trying to earn salvation. When I do bad, I feel like I couldn't have done those things if I were saved. I have sincerely prayed for salvation literally hundreds of times, and still there is no change.

So my question is this

Is it possible to prove that you are saved, or is there something that a saved person does that a lost person woud never do? Please provide a scriptural answer.

In the Bible there is the story of Moses creating a serpent and when people looked at it they were healed. Now there is nothing that says they had to be really certain before they looked otherwise it would not work - no, however feeble their faith all they had to do was look. So if you believe that Jesus died for your sins then that is enough. But with salvation comes the need for repentance and sanctification, an in love struggling to lead a holy life not out of fear but out of love for the one who gave us himself

[taylor30]

I must disagree with your 2nd paragraph. If we TRULY hate our sins, se would NOT allow ourselves to commit them. Since no person lives without sin, we obviously ALL have sins we refuse to give up. Our sins are ALWAYS a choice and ALWAYS our fault

Taylor, you must understand that when we are saved we have two natures. One from Adam, and the new nature from God. These are in direct opposition of each other. You need to at least back up your statements with scripture. Here is what I am saying. It is the nature of sin. A born one does not practice sin. There is a possibility of sinning and still hating it. If you deny this I do not know what else to say as I only have scripture to stand on and not what I feel about a situation.

Rom 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

Rom 7:16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

Rom 7:17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Rom 7:21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

Yes I know that we have 2 natures. However did God not say that we are set free from the power of sin? Did he not say to NOT let sin reign in your body? If he gave such a command, obviously he expects us to keep it. If Jesus had said to YOU as he said to the woman caught in Adultery in John 8, "Go and sin no more", would you have said to him, "But LORD. I am only human and I have 2 natures". If you don't think that argument would fly with him, why would it work now?

[taylor30]

This may seem like an odd question, however I have had doubts about my own salvation for years. When I do good, I feel like I am trying to earn salvation. When I do bad, I feel like I couldn't have done those things if I were saved. I have sincerely prayed for salvation literally hundreds of times, and still there is no change.

So my question is this

Is it possible to prove that you are saved, or is there something that a saved person does that a lost person woud never do? Please provide a scriptural answer.

In the Bible there is the story of Moses creating a serpent and when people looked at it they were healed. Now there is nothing that says they had to be really certain before they looked otherwise it would not work - no, however feeble their faith all they had to do was look. So if you believe that Jesus died for your sins then that is enough. But with salvation comes the need for repentance and sanctification, an in love struggling to lead a holy life not out of fear but out of love for the one who gave us himself

True. It is our accepting the gift of forgiveness that saves us. However though many will admit we are not saved by works, those same people will use works as a measure of whether they are saved or not. Scripture DOES say we are saved FOR good works, so my OP is based on this concept and question. IF a person claims to have sincerely asked for forgiveness and wants salvation and a relationship with God, BUT they do not give up their sinful lifestyles, is that person truly saved. Many will say NO, however that would be a form of works salvation. If salvation is TRULY BY FAITH ALONE, then it is possible for a saved person to live a life of sin. I believe this is what Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthians 3 when he says a person will suffer loss as one through the fire, YET he is still saved.

[taylor30]

This may seem like an odd question, however I have had doubts about my own salvation for years. When I do good, I feel like I am trying to earn salvation. When I do bad, I feel like I couldn't have done those things if I were saved. I have sincerely prayed for salvation literally hundreds of times, and still there is no change.

So my question is this

Is it possible to prove that you are saved, or is there something that a saved person does that a lost person woud never do? Please provide a scriptural answer.

Can you tell us what salvation is based on, in your understanding? What kind of a change are you looking for?

Scripture says that a saved person will be changed and do good works and forsake sin. BUT it also says that works havery NOTHING to do with salvation. If this is true and salvation is based on FAITH ALONE, then one has to acknowledge at least the possibility that one CAN live in sin and be saved. If works so not save you, then you cannot use works as a basis for whether you are saved or not. Enslaved often look saved if they do good deeds and go to church, yet they are NOT saved.

So I am trying to figure out : Is there SOMETHING that is a mark of a TRUE saved person that snap enslaved person would not do good, nor even want to do if they could? The obvious answer of being obedient to God's commands comes to mind, but what if you DON'T want to obey God's commands? Is it possible to still be saved, especially if you DID turn to God and truly desire to serve him earlier in life and only later decided sin was just too fun to give up.

[Floatingaxe]

This may seem like an odd question, however I have had doubts about my own salvation for years. When I do good, I feel like I am trying to earn salvation. When I do bad, I feel like I couldn't have done those things if I were saved. I have sincerely prayed for salvation literally hundreds of times, and still there is no change.

So my question is this

Is it possible to prove that you are saved, or is there something that a saved person does that a lost person woud never do? Please provide a scriptural answer.

Can you tell us what salvation is based on, in your understanding? What kind of a change are you looking for?

Scripture says that a saved person will be changed and do good works and forsake sin. BUT it also says that works havery NOTHING to do with salvation. If this is true and salvation is based on FAITH ALONE, then one has to acknowledge at least the possibility that one CAN live in sin and be saved. If works so not save you, then you cannot use works as a basis for whether you are saved or not. Enslaved often look saved if they do good deeds and go to church, yet they are NOT saved.

So I am trying to figure out : Is there SOMETHING that is a mark of a TRUE saved person that snap enslaved person would not do good, nor even want to do if they could? The obvious answer of being obedient to God's commands comes to mind, but what if you DON'T want to obey God's commands? Is it possible to still be saved, especially if you DID turn to God and truly desire to serve him earlier in life and only later decided sin was just too fun to give up.

When a person receives Jesus Christ as Saviour he must also make Him Lord. Jesus moves in and makes His home in us. He gives us a new spirit within us, transforming us into His image, day by day by day. There are noticeable changes---or fruit---that can be observed in a believer. We can be known by our works, but that is the natural outflow of a changed life.

Those who do works to gain the appearance of being a Christian are the tares we rub shoulders with every day. God sees them.

If there is no desire to please God, and to serve Him and to avoid sinning, then there is no regeneration, and that person is deceived or a deceiver or both.

Galatians 5:19-26

19 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

22 But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!

24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. 25 Since we are living by the Spirit, let us follow the Spirit’s leading in every part of our lives. 26 Let us not become conceited, or provoke one another, or be jealous of one another.