Margret Mcdonald and the Pre-Trib Origins

[Montana Marv]

Well I think alot of the problem is calling it a rapture in the first place. The term rapture is being used in refernce to being caught up with Jesus and apostle, prophets, and the saints. People took this idea of being caught up with Christ and fabricated a false doctrine. The scripture says nothing about a rapture before the tribulation. Ive never even seen the word rapture in association with the tribulation in the Bible. The Bible clearly explains itself and warns us against adding to and taking away from its Word. Concepts like the rapture and millenialism take excerpts of the Bible and create a false doctrine around a partial truth, as is the case with all religion. The Bible isnt a religion, its a record of Gods Word throughout the ages as a testament to His mercy. God just wants people to repent from sin, follow the ten commandments, and if you know Jesus to give testimony of Him. Have no doubt, there will be people who followed the commandments that never heard of Jesus or the Bible. The Holy Spirit isnt limited to paper or name but that makes it all the more important for us who have the testimony of Jesus to be of one accord, interpreting the scripture as a whole, and not as a partial truth partial to a biased opinion. The scripture isnt open to private interpretation. So if the Bible clearly states that the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive will be caught up with them in the clouds. Where is there a pretrib rapture? All I know is when the tribulation comes, whenever that is, those who believe in a pretrib rapture will be caught off guard and might fall because they arent mentally prepared to be martyrs. Unless of course everyone thinks that the son of perdition is a real nice guy who isnt hell bent on killing God, cause thats what he was attempting to do in the garden of eden by causing man (Gods image and likeness) to sin. By reading scripture we know this world isnt going to get better, in fact its going to burn, but believeing that God will "rapture" the church to safety from the tribulation to come is wishful thinking, not scripture, and if youre afraid of being martyred then you might want to pray for strength, or that you die before the son of perdition is revealed. Though that seems harsh the reality of the tribulation will be much harsher in its own terms.

xero

The Rapture (harpozo) is not a false doctrine.

Read 2 Thes 2 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not yo become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, Saying the the Day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed. If one can answer these two questions, then one know when the Rapture will occur.

Some of those in the 1at Century thought they had miss the (harpozo) Rapture. Then Paul gives specifics.

xero, why are you not a martyr now. Tens of thousand of Christian have already been martyred. They are with the Lord now. There is no big difference of when one is martyred. Many are not martyred, those believers are with the Lord. Martyrdom is not graduation, it does not bring salvation.

Enoch

Which Resurrection is the first to begin?

In Christ

Montana Marv

[goldust59]

Well I think alot of the problem is calling it a rapture in the first place. The term rapture is being used in refernce to being caught up with Jesus and apostle, prophets, and the saints. People took this idea of being caught up with Christ and fabricated a false doctrine. The scripture says nothing about a rapture before the tribulation. Ive never even seen the word rapture in association with the tribulation in the Bible. The Bible clearly explains itself and warns us against adding to and taking away from its Word. Concepts like the rapture and millenialism take excerpts of the Bible and create a false doctrine around a partial truth, as is the case with all religion. The Bible isnt a religion, its a record of Gods Word throughout the ages as a testament to His mercy. God just wants people to repent from sin, follow the ten commandments, and if you know Jesus to give testimony of Him. Have no doubt, there will be people who followed the commandments that never heard of Jesus or the Bible. The Holy Spirit isnt limited to paper or name but that makes it all the more important for us who have the testimony of Jesus to be of one accord, interpreting the scripture as a whole, and not as a partial truth partial to a biased opinion. The scripture isnt open to private interpretation. So if the Bible clearly states that the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive will be caught up with them in the clouds. Where is there a pretrib rapture? All I know is when the tribulation comes, whenever that is, those who believe in a pretrib rapture will be caught off guard and might fall because they arent mentally prepared to be martyrs. Unless of course everyone thinks that the son of perdition is a real nice guy who isnt hell bent on killing God, cause thats what he was attempting to do in the garden of eden by causing man (Gods image and likeness) to sin. By reading scripture we know this world isnt going to get better, in fact its going to burn, but believeing that God will "rapture" the church to safety from the tribulation to come is wishful thinking, not scripture, and if youre afraid of being martyred then you might want to pray for strength, or that you die before the son of perdition is revealed. Though that seems harsh the reality of the tribulation will be much harsher in its own terms.

Thank you for answering. What you say about the "rapture"(don't like the word myself) is so true & the devil is definitely still at work to destroy us all. I pray that we all come to maturity as the Body of Christ!

[xero]

2Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

[He giveth more grace]

Thank you for answering. What you say about the "rapture"(don't like the word myself) is so true & the devil is definitely still at work to destroy us all. I pray that we all come to maturity as the Body of Christ!

So, I take it you are not of the main stream Protestantism, so are you Seventh Day Adventist, the theme of a "catching away" is resonant throughout Protestantism, and how do you not see the difference in Scripture in Christ coming to the clouds and him coming to the Mount of Olives, we have two different events here.

What you say about the "rapture"(don't like the word myself) is so true & the devil is definitely still at work to destroy us all. I pray that we all come to maturity as the Body of Christ!

Don't like the word? Well call it the "catching away"!

"The devil....at work to destroy us", how little of you, how small is your unterstanding, so am I a minion of the Devil? Walk softly, around doctrine and your brothers in Christ.

[He giveth more grace]

Well I think alot of the problem is calling it a rapture in the first place. The term rapture is being used in refernce to being caught up with Jesus and apostle, prophets, and the saints. People took this idea of being caught up with Christ and fabricated a false doctrine. The scripture says nothing about a rapture before the tribulation. Ive never even seen the word rapture in association with the tribulation in the Bible. The Bible clearly explains itself and warns us against adding to and taking away from its Word. Concepts like the rapture and millenialism take excerpts of the Bible and create a false doctrine around a partial truth, as is the case with all religion. The Bible isnt a religion, its a record of Gods Word throughout the ages as a testament to His mercy. God just wants people to repent from sin, follow the ten commandments, and if you know Jesus to give testimony of Him. Have no doubt, there will be people who followed the commandments that never heard of Jesus or the Bible. The Holy Spirit isnt limited to paper or name but that makes it all the more important for us who have the testimony of Jesus to be of one accord, interpreting the scripture as a whole, and not as a partial truth partial to a biased opinion. The scripture isnt open to private interpretation. So if the Bible clearly states that the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive will be caught up with them in the clouds. Where is there a pretrib rapture? All I know is when the tribulation comes, whenever that is, those who believe in a pretrib rapture will be caught off guard and might fall because they arent mentally prepared to be martyrs. Unless of course everyone thinks that the son of perdition is a real nice guy who isnt hell bent on killing God, cause thats what he was attempting to do in the garden of eden by causing man (Gods image and likeness) to sin. By reading scripture we know this world isnt going to get better, in fact its going to burn, but believeing that God will "rapture" the church to safety from the tribulation to come is wishful thinking, not scripture, and if youre afraid of being martyred then you might want to pray for strength, or that you die before the son of perdition is revealed. Though that seems harsh the reality of the tribulation will be much harsher in its own terms.

To the clouds vs to Mount of Olives, one to the atmosphere and one to Terra Firma, the scriptures has been posted previously.

This is the "catching away":

"

Then we which are alive and remain shall be

caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air

....

"

1 Thess. 4:17

<P dir=ltr>The is the Second Coming (second advent):

"And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which

is

before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,

and there shall be

a very great valley..." Zechariah 14:4

Why you all glory in going through the tribulation, which you would have to be in Israel to experience (time of Jacob's trouble)?

[He giveth more grace]

Well I think alot of the problem is calling it a rapture in the first place.

Well, I wish that I could say that I am raptured (caught up by) by your post, but alas I'm not.

[jasoncran]

Bet the Christians in China or Iran dont buy into a pretrib rapture.

Jesus says the resurrection is the last day what comes after the last day....

no they dont as many of them probably think it cant get worse but if it does, god is with them already. they hold to the promises better then we do and have church as that is all they have. we american and western christians havent a clue on persecution.

[goldust59]

Thank you for answering. What you say about the "rapture"(don't like the word myself) is so true & the devil is definitely still at work to destroy us all. I pray that we all come to maturity as the Body of Christ!

So, I take it you are not of the main stream Protestantism, so are you Seventh Day Adventist, the theme of a "catching away" is resonant throughout Protestantism, and how do you not see the difference in Scripture in Christ coming to the clouds and him coming to the Mount of Olives, we have two different events here.

What you say about the "rapture"(don't like the word myself) is so true & the devil is definitely still at work to destroy us all. I pray that we all come to maturity as the Body of Christ!

Don't like the word? Well call it the "catching away"!

"The devil....at work to destroy us", how little of you, how small is your unterstanding, so am I a minion of the Devil? Walk softly, around doctrine and your brothers in Christ.

I am neither mainstream Protestant or SDA. Matter of fact, all the denominational labeling & separation is one of the biggest problems in the 'church' today, IMO. We are supposed to be the Body of Christ, not separated into warring camps, arguing over doctrine. I, for one, will be glad when we are all on the same page.

I don't like the word 'rapture' & neither do I use 'catching away'. The term 'caught away' was used once that I have found in scripture- Acts 8:39, where the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip & relocated him some 20(?) miles away from where he was.

I prefer 'caught up', which is used in 4 places as the exact same term. 2 Corinthians 12:2,4 , 1 Thessalonians 4:17 & Revelation 12:5

2 Cor 12:2~ I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,(whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knows;) such a one caught up to the third heaven.

2 Cor 12:4~How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

1 Thessalonians 4:17~Then we which are alive & remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

Revelation 12:5~And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

In 2 Cor 12:2, Paul wasn't sure whether the physical body was even involved in this event of catching up or if it happened only in spirit. Now, I don't claim to have all the answers about the meaning of the 1 Thess 4:17 scripture, but I believe it has much deeper meaning than what is commonly taught. I think we can be caught up to where Jesus is & not physically leave the earth.

And yes, the devil is always at work to destroy the people of God & he is the master of deception. And no, I did not say you were a minion of the devil.

I think that the devil was trying to deceive the people in Paul's day, just the same as he is doing today. We need to always be alert & be praying that the Holy Spirit lead us into all truth.

[Floatingaxe]

I don't like the word 'rapture' & neither do I use 'catching away'. The term 'caught away' was used once that I have found in scripture- Acts 8:39, where the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip & relocated him some 20(?) miles away from where he was.

I prefer 'caught up', which is used in 4 places as the exact same term. 2 Corinthians 12:2,4 , 1 Thessalonians 4:17 & Revelation 12:5

It really doesn't matter whether or not you like the word or not---whether it is catching away or being caught up, it still comes from the same single word, 'harpazo'.

G726

ἁρπάζω

harpazō

har-pad'-zo

From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

It is a deception to attach new meanings to plain words of scripture.

[goldust59]

I don't like the word 'rapture' & neither do I use 'catching away'. The term 'caught away' was used once that I have found in scripture- Acts 8:39, where the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip & relocated him some 20(?) miles away from where he was.

I prefer 'caught up', which is used in 4 places as the exact same term. 2 Corinthians 12:2,4 , 1 Thessalonians 4:17 & Revelation 12:5

It really doesn't matter whether or not you like the word or not---whether it is catching away or being caught up, it still comes from the same single word, 'harpazo'.

G726

ἁρπάζω

harpazō

har-pad'-zo

From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

It is a deception to attach new meanings to plain words of scripture.

It certainly is.