Predestination

[Floatingaxe]

What all did God predestine? Any scripture to provide illumination on this topic would be greatly appreciated! God Bless and thank you in advance for your participation on this topic...

Romans 8:29

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30

Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5

having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

God has predestined those who are His own to become like His Son.

[saved34]

What all did God predestine? Any scripture to provide illumination on this topic would be greatly appreciated! God Bless and thank you in advance for your participation on this topic...

Romans 8:29

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30

Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5

having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

God has predestined those who are His own to become like His Son.

Praise God, FA! It really is that simple. Predestination is a word that only we as believers can cherish and enjoy. To place that on the unsaved in the negative sense has zero scriptural backing.

[Floatingaxe]

What all did God predestine? Any scripture to provide illumination on this topic would be greatly appreciated! God Bless and thank you in advance for your participation on this topic...

Romans 8:29

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30

Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5

having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

God has predestined those who are His own to become like His Son.

Praise God, FA! It really is that simple. Predestination is a word that only we as believers can cherish and enjoy. To place that on the unsaved in the negative sense has zero scriptural backing.

EXACTLY!

[childeye]

In both cases sin was waiting at the door.

The difference is that Adam did not have the knowledge of good and evil. He had not been corrupted with a false image of god.

If he did not have a choice, then it would have read something like this. "Cain, I do not respect your offering, therefore you have sinned". End verse. It does not read that way, in fact, it is very rich with the Grace of Jehovah God, in that he gave Cain ample opportunity to do right.

Who said he did not have a choice? Scripture is showing that given the choice, Cain chose to kill his brother. He therefore did not master sin. Sin mastered him.

that I do not believe man can hear the Gospel apart from the power of the Holy Spirit. I'm saying the sinner has always had a choice, in that he can remain in his sinful ways, or accept the rescuing hand of God. God will not force him to do so.

Certainly the Truth rules differently in a man than a lie does. I would not say that God will not force the Truth on anyone. Scripture is clear that people resist the Truth all the time, such is God's longsuffering. Even the apostle Paul was once Saul. Scripture also says some men will resist to the bitter end however, and here is left a testimony to how far belief in a lie will take a person. I have even heard it said that the offering of ones own children to Molech is meant to kill the conscience. I will not regard that as anything but being utterly owned by Satan, an enslaved will. I will not dignify it by saying it was their free will and they thwarted God to preserve their freedom. Is it not possible that God has reserved such as a testimony? Is it not possible that God has prepared vessels to take out the trash and they think they defied Him? Scripture says God desires all to come to the knowledge of the Truth, but He also says to Satan behold you are a man in Isaiah 14:16. Also we read, Hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. Reading such things, it is difficult to say that God does not force anyone.

Are you prepared to say that only the Pharisees ran from the light of Christ?

Of course not. But that is beside the point. I am saying that those who don't want their sins exposed are protecting their pride. And I say this to point out that their belief in free will is the basis for their fears of being exposed. They think they will be diminished since they view sin as a choice, just like the one presented Cain. Hence they do not regard sin as an infirmity in men and so they do not come to Christ to be healed. That is a hypocritical reasoning.

[Guest]

.... Of course not. But that is beside the point. I am saying that those who don't want their sins exposed are protecting their pride. And I say this to point out that their belief in free will is the basis for their fears of being exposed. They think they will be diminished since they view sin as a choice, just like the one presented Cain. Hence they do not regard sin as an infirmity in men and so they do not come to Christ to be healed. That is a hypocritical reasoning....

That Is Strange Indeed Dear One. Hypocritical Reasoning?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

For Men Are Free To Choose Jesus

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:16

Or Not

[childeye]

Childeye said: Yes and man's own way is his so called free will, when it is in fact nothing but vanity. But this is an antithesis to free will.

I agree with you as to the QUALITY of man's free will, but it is still the ability to reject or choose (when God the Holy Spirit calls upon the heart) life. You and others are confusing free will with quality. Surely the results of man's own will will eventually end in devastation and catastrophe.

How interesting. I have never heard this claim before that a free will is lacking in quality. That is however is essentially what I am saying in that Adam's free will was compromised in the garden of Eden and became corrupted with a false image of god. Being corrupted it is no longer free to regard God with the proper esteem. Hence God gave them over to the lust of the flesh. I set before you life and death, choose life. But men could not and all have fallen short of the glory of God. Deserving only of death, The Christ came and took upon himself our sins to remove the curse of the law and fulfill the promise given to Abraham which comes by grace through faith, not by the will of man nor by the will of the flesh. And God does it this way so that no flesh may glory.

Question, when you sin, is it God that makes you sin? If it is not God, are you saying satan is making you sin? Or, are you willing to say that you sin because sin is self will, which is the fact that you were drawn away of your OWN lusts at that time, and you failed God. Which is it?

I have said this already, when I have said that apart from God there is no will in man but the flesh. Sin is a self will but definitely not a free will. Regarding Satan, yes he is the father of sin and the giver of the false image of god.

Have you ever succumbed to "fleshly lust"? If so, why? Was it God's will, or yours? If you answer yours, then it must be asserted that you acted of your own will at that time, and not God's, because our Lord has broken the power of sin over us, yet there are times when we still fail. I am not condemning you or anyone else, because I am a fellow brother in Christ, and I go through the exact same trials everyone you go through. Now if you say you do not sin, or fail God, then we have another whole discussion. lol

Yes I have succumbed to "fleshly lust". Why? Because I am flesh. Was it God's will or mine? That's an either or proposition. I would do well to point out that I did not will to be made of sinful flesh nor do I will to succumb to it. This immediately brings to mind Paul's statement in Romans 7:20, wherein he says, Romans 7:20, Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. Now you will say, that being broken from the power of sin it must be asserted that I acted of my own free will to sin at this time while I am in Christ. Not at all, for sin has no power over me only because I am under grace. Moreover the purification of the mind is a journey out of the carnal mind guided by the Holy Spirit. Now before you have said it is our free will to sin and said it is not a quality will to do anything but sin. So what is this will in Paul that does not wish to sin in opposition to the flesh but cannot accomplish that which it wills? That is the will of the inner man that needs to be set free.

I have an "angst' against any doctrine that is false. I'm not fighting for free will, I am hopefully showing those who deny it, the truth of it.

Then you are fighting to show the truth of it. But you have already admitted the will of man is not free by saying the quality of it is less than qualified, meaning the same thing as saying it is no longer absolutely free to make right choices, or that it is subject to a lust of the flesh without the Holy Spirit. Faced with this you then make the distinction that a man can yet choose to accept the Truth of God because God would never force a man. But Saul was forced to see the Truth even as he was a chosen vessel unto Christ. And God shows mercy where he shows mercy in fulfillment of a promise to Abraham.

Childeye said: Your power of reasoning brings you to a conclusion that if it's not man's fault it must be God's fault.

Can you quote me as having said this. That is a false charge my friend.

No I can't quote you as saying this, but the premise of my conjecture is verified in this:

Have you ever succumbed to "fleshly lust"? If so, why? Was it God's will, or yours?

Childeye said: While God would give someone over to a depraved mind because they did not desire God, the depraved mind would think they chose it.

They did chose it, because God had the truth for them to recieve, but they would not. Only then, does God enact judgement upon them. A dreadful darkening of their minds to believe lies for the express purpose that they may be doomed to an eternity of torment and destruction from the presence of God.

But that is not what scripture says. Do you actually believe someone would choose to have a reprobate mind that would do things inconvenient? Let's look at the scripture in context.The scripure does not say they chose anything. It says they did not glorify God as God. They were not thankful. They thought they were wise of themselves. So we see that men became vain in that they did not regard God as the source of wisdom thinking they were wise of themselves wherefore they were unthankful. They were therefore not esteeming God as God and so God gave them over to the lusts of the flesh. This is the same vanity as we see in Lucifer.

Romans 1:21=22

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

[childeye]

.... Of course not. But that is beside the point. I am saying that those who don't want their sins exposed are protecting their pride. And I say this to point out that their belief in free will is the basis for their fears of being exposed. They think they will be diminished since they view sin as a choice, just like the one presented Cain. Hence they do not regard sin as an infirmity in men and so they do not come to Christ to be healed. That is a hypocritical reasoning....

That Is Strange Indeed Dear One. Hypocritical Reasoning?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

For Men Are Free To Choose Jesus

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:16

Or Not

Fresno Joe, Respectfully, I really don't see how those who choose darkness see the Light, they are afraid of it and fight against it. Obviously, you are equating free will with choice, I am talking about the reasoning behind the choice.

1 Timothy 1:14-16

New International Version (NIV)

14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

[saved34]

The difference is that Adam did not have the knowledge of good and evil. He had not been corrupted with a false image of god.

Then wouldn't that make Cains situation even more so a choice than Adam's? Further more, Cain was in the very presence of God himself. You are taking a clear text that says God himself, not a prophet, not a go between, God. He is the one that gave each man his choice. Unless you're willing to say God didn't really mean they had a choice, shouldn't you conform your theology to fit the word, instead of the other way around? By your reasoning, because Adam made the wrong choice, he could not do anything but that. Even though we both know he was considered innocent at the time. Both men ended up making the wrong choice, so using morality as the difference is pretty much meaningless. Man having the ability to choose is not resting on morality. Are you prepared to say God did not really mean all that he said to Cain? His offer of doing the right thing was not a legit offer? Your argument in light of scripture is full of too many holes, my friend.

Who said he did not have a choice? Scripture is showing that given the choice, Cain chose to kill his brother. He therefore did not master sin. Sin mastered him.

Sin mastered Adam too, yet you do not deny that he had free will. Again, you must then come to the conclusion that God's words to Cain were not genuine if we take your own thoughts to their logical conclusion. It would be much easier to agree with clear scripture, than to argue in circles from your own opinion.

I will not regard that as anything but being utterly owned by Satan, an enslaved will. I will not dignify it by saying it was their free will and they thwarted God to preserve their freedom

I have no problem with you not regarding it as free will, just know however, that, that does not make your position true. "Thwarted God" are your own words and argument, because I have never said anything of the such. You are arguing from your own position of denying man free will because he is sinful.

but He also says to Satan behold you are a man in Isaiah 14:16. Also we read, Hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. Reading such things, it is difficult to say that God does not force anyone.

My friend...it's so much to say just in this small quote. You are jumping about scripture that has no bearing on what we are discussing. I mean, if you are going to use satan, he is the originator of the "self will" . He spread that same disease to mankind. The very definition of sin is "I will" instead "Thy Will".

However, what in the world does that have to do with discrediting free will? Even the verse you paraphrased concerning giving a person over to the devil, in order for his flesh (not his sinful nature, for this is talking about a literal destruction of the body, read it in context) to be destroyed. Compare it to 1 Corinthians 11:30-32. "Many of you Die (sleep)"

1Co 11:30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.

1Co 11:31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.

1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

Of course not. But that is beside the point. I am saying that those who don't want their sins exposed are protecting their pride. And I say this to point out that their belief in free will is the basis for their fears of being exposed. They think they will be diminished since they view sin as a choice

This makes absolutely no sense, I'm sorry to be so blunt, but please phrase this statement so I can understand it clearly. Especially this line " I am saying that those who don't want their sins exposed are protecting their pride. And I say this to point out that their belief in free will is the basis for their fears of being exposed".

[saved34]

Being corrupted it is no longer free to regard God with the proper esteem. Hence God gave them over to the lust of the flesh.

The Bible does not say "God gave them over to the lusts of the flesh" The Bible says Jehovah God made coats of skins for them. He covered their nakedness and obviously instructed them in the right way to approach him after the fall, this is reasoned out by Abel knowing what type of offering to bring God.(SCRIPTURE SAYS HE DID IT BY FAITH) In other words, God still made a way for them to have fellowship with him. Where do you see anywhere that this denies free will, if anything it affirms it because Cain brought the fruit of his own labor. God rejected it, but gave him a way to amend it.

Gen 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.

I set before you life and death, choose life. But men could not and all have fallen short of the glory of God

I agree with you, but you are mixing too many subjects and getting ahead of yourself. You say men could not choose life, yet we have record after record of men siding with Jehovah God all through the Old Testament. As faulty, and sinful as they were, men still called upon the name of the Lord before our Lord was manifest to finally give the death blow to sin. Lot is called a righteous man, and yet he had babies by his own daughters. Interestingly enough, our Lord's own bloodline is full of Prostitutes, and people who were not model citizens, yet they called upon the name of the Lord. To say that men could not choose life is simply untrue. However, Christ is the true life, and he is the very righteousness that God requires. God long suffered the sins of the past, and now that Christ has came, he did indeed fulfill the Law, and has set us free from it through death with him. He has brought us to God by his very own blood. Please do not misunderstand what I am saying.

Yes I have succumbed to "fleshly lust". Why? Because I am flesh. Was it God's will or mine? That's an either or proposition.

No it's not. Scripture says this:

Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.

Jas 1:15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

God does not tempt with evil. There is no question that it is of your own lust that sin comes about. You either resist it in the power of the Holy Spirit, or you succumb to it. Choice.

This immediately brings to mind Paul's statement in Romans 7:20, wherein he says, Romans 7:20, Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

This is correct, the new man, the new nature fully desires to serve God, and scripture says it cannot sin. As a Christian you and I have two distinct natures. One from natural posterity, and one from God himself. That still does not change the fact that the responsibility of sin falls directly on us.

Eph 5:3 But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;

Not at all, for sin has no power over me only because I am under grace.

Praise God for this powerful statement, but you must use it in it's proper context, for Paul still says:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

Rom 6:2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

He would not have said this if we did not clearly have a choice to do so of our own accord. In the end, it is still your will, only the flesh is not a complete representation of the real you.

That is the will of the inner man that needs to be set free.

Morality is not the defining factor for free will. God's will is the only will that matters, but man has a will and God honors it. If he continues on apart from Christ, he will perish, if he believes on Christ, he will live.

Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

He that believes will be saved, he that actively continues in unbelief is condemned already. This verse clearly sets forth a man or woman who is resisting the truth of their own selves.

No I can't quote you as saying this, but the premise of my conjecture is verified in this:

Have you ever succumbed to "fleshly lust"? If so, why? Was it God's will, or yours?

You'll have to explain this quote more in depth, because frankly, that is a very heavy charge to lay on a fellow brother in Christ. You are saying that I am blaming God almighty because of a truth, it is not his will for you to sin? Is this serious? God's express will for his children is that we sin not.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

Eph 4:26 BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger,

1Co 15:34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

Even though we do still sin, it is not God's will. When we sin it is of our own lusts and will. It's very simple, what's not simple is your charge of me that I am somehow blaming God by saying that.

Do you actually believe someone would choose to have a reprobate mind that would do things inconvenient?

They didn't choose a reprobate mind, they chose to not retain God in their Knowledge, they chose to change his image into corruptible things, the judgement was giving them up to a depraved mind. Let's look at it in context. The scripture clearly says they knew the truth of God, and even knew God, but they changed his true image to something false. If you start at verse 18 and read the entire chapter you will gain a deeper understanding. These are not men who are ignorant of truth

Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

They are said to have actually known God.Of which, Cain is a perfect example.

Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Before these people were turned over to reprobate minds, they themselves denied God, and chose to suppress the truth. free will. If you doubt what I am saying, read the passage again for yourself, only read more than verses 22 and 23. Get the whole context my friend.

[OneLight]

Forgive me if you see me as haggling. I am trying to understand why a sister in Christ refuses to discuss an issue with me. I was seeking the truth behind your decision, which I would still like. If you chose to ignore my request, I will stop asking. I just feel an explanation was due and appropriate.

OneLight, I consider this explanation of our different approaches to Scripture as my second shot at a discssion with you on this issue.

I supplied the truth behind my decision when I complied with your request to explain my approach to Scripture,

and you said you subscribe to the same approach.

If that is the case, why is there still a problem, why is there now a haggle when you say you are in agreement?

I think my decision to withdraw from a discussion with you of foreknowledge, and now of the prinicples to which you say you subscribe, was an appropriate one. Our approaches are just not compatible.

I don't like refusing you, but it is the right thing to do.

Kind regards,

Eleanor

This is exactly why I continue to question, not understanding what you are saying. You say our approach is different, then you listed the principles that you stand on as the reason why we can't continue, and when I agree, you continue to say we can't continue and give no further explanation. This is why I seem confused. If you said that you just completely disagree with me and you agree to disagree, I would understand that. But, you don't and I am still left wondering what the difference is in our approach if I agree to the principles you set forth.

Alan, do you see any disagreement between the principles and your application of them, both presented here?

There is no need to get angry or holler at me. I am sending you a PM so we can discuss this in private since you seem to be getting mad.

Alan, I bolded my one-line response so that it would be seen, because it was my only response, made in the middle of a long post, the last half of which you did not present here.

I frequently bold either to identify what I am addressing, or to cause it to stand out from my text.

My bolding is about nothing more than that.

I took it private to eliminate derailing this thread any further and to stop the bickering between us in public. Let's keep it there. If you wish to reply, reply to my last PM.