Worry and trusting God to provide?

[Fez]

But there is also this...

Pro 6:6 Go to the ant, O sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise.

Pro 6:7 Without having any chief, officer, or ruler,

Pro 6:8 she prepares her bread in summer and gathers her food in harvest.

Pro 6:9 How long will you lie there, O sluggard? When will you arise from your sleep?

Pro 6:10 A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest,

Pro 6:11 and poverty will come upon you like a robber, and want like an armed man.

Would seem we are exhorted to work and save.

And here I mean finances as well as "spiritual saving" for the hard times.

We need to know the Word, gather the Word, store the Word. We will at some time need it.

[carlos123]

Curious about this myself...what of Christian families who do not make enough to have that spare money to put into an account for their children and just make barely enough to cover their basic needs? Does this make them less faithful? It is really disappointing when one's income is a measure of one's faith.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with not having enough to put into savings accounts for their children Dani.

The whole notion of Christians needing to be well off and able to do such things under the Kingdom of God is a bunch of doo doo (to put it mildly).

Here are some verses to ponder...all verses are from the NASB.

1 Timothy 6:3

If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words ... who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. But godliness actually is a means of great gain when accompanied by contentment. For we have brought nothing into the world, so we cannot take anything out of it either. If we have food and covering, with these we shall be content. But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

According to the above verses any desire to get more than food and covering which are legitimate and present needs is to fall into wanting to get rich (beyond what we are to be content with). A desire to get rich beyond what we need for present needs is to open the door to falling into a snare and many foolish and harmful desire which can rob us of living by faith.

1 Timothy 6:17

Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.

People who have lots of money can easily get conceited. Thinking that people who do not have similar riches or are working toward such riches are less worthy or of less value, perhaps even just lazy. They also have a tendency to fix their hope on their riches and NOT on God.

Hebrews 13:5

Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, “ I will never desert you, nor will I ever forsake you,”

The greatest treasure that we have is Jesus Himself. Relationship to Him and being intimate with Him is EVERYTHING! People who love money do not love God. They orient their lives around getting and accumulating that which they love. Money! Not God.

Many religious folks LOVE money just like the Pharasees did. But there is NO love of God within their hearts.

Carlos

[Fez]

[carlos123]

Pro 6:6 Go to the ant, O sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise.

Pro 6:7 Without having any chief, officer, or ruler,

Pro 6:8 she prepares her bread in summer and gathers her food in harvest.

Pro 6:9 How long will you lie there, O sluggard? When will you arise from your sleep?

Pro 6:10 A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest,

Pro 6:11 and poverty will come upon you like a robber, and want like an armed man.

Oh that is what you meant by talking of the ant and mustard .

Notice something though. It says she prepares her bread in summer and gathers her food in harvest.

She does what is needed when it is needed.

These verses do not at all condone building big barns to store food beyond present need. Investing in savings accounts for future needs or any other such thing. Even the ant does not do these things! The ant simply does what is necessary when it is necessary to do it.

I know of NO ant that has what is the equivalent of insurance, savings accounts, retirement nest eggs, and what have you! Ever seen an ant with barns of food stored up to meet future needs? I mean beyond what is reasonable (such as when the bear overeats to make it through the winter in hibernation)? I do not mean to say that ANY wisdom should not be applied in using what we have food wise or otherwise only that there is NO justification through faith in God to store up to meet future needs in the sense that people who do not God do.

The thrust of these verses is to highlight the need for the sluggard to work NOT to condone or encourage hoarding or storing in barns or otherwise to meet future needs. The sluggard does not do what is needed when it is needed and as a result he suffers want.

Proverbs tells the sluggard to get up from his laziness and do what is needed when it is needed that he might not suffer present need. Not so that he can store things up and get all lazy again while sitting around like the rich man in Jesus's parable and take it easy.

Carlos

[carlos123]

I can quote dozens of examples in my church alone of the rich using their wealth for the good.

Notice that I did NOT say that people who are rich WILL get conceited or fix their hopes on their riches Fez. Only that they have that tendency. Don't read into what I say more than what I actually say.

There is nothing sinful about being rich OR about being poor either. In fact the Bible says that those who are poor in this life have a high position while those are rich have a low position with respective to the walk of faith. Please note that I am talking about the relative state of one's wealth NOT about whether one is lazy or otherwise not walking righteously.

Here in North America it is the general tendency to assume that poor people just don't want to work which is a bunch of doo doo.

Carlos

[AnotherSinner]

People who have lots of money can easily get conceited. Thinking that people who do not have similar riches or are working toward such riches are less worthy or of less value, perhaps even just lazy. They also have a tendency to fix their hope on their riches and NOT on God.

Not in my church. Here it is quite the opposite. We believe God has blessed the rich (I am not one of them...) to use their wealth to the good of the Kingdom. And we do NOT preach prosperity gospel. Everything is God's will. We have the poorest of the poor to some of the richest in our area attending our church.

I can quote dozens of examples in my church alone of the rich using their wealth for the good.

Fez,

That is truly awesome. The church my husband and I attend have some good hearted people too. Our preacher is one of those. He always asks after us, offers us time...prayer...council... we are never made to feel like less than him or others therein because of how little we give. The church means so much to me. As does the one one one time I get in God's word. Brothers and sisters in faith should be much like a family should be.

So happy for you Fez, that in a church family is a real blessing in this day and age.

Just Another Sinner Seeking The Way

Dani

[carlos123]

The Lord seemed to direct my heart to reading about this issue once again this morning and I saw something else that I wanted to share with you all in what I read.

Again take what I say and think and pray over it considering whether or not what I say is of God as it is a bit radical for present day Christian traditions and practice.

And it is also possible that I may not be seeing things correctly or whatever so take that into account too.

But having said that here is what impressed my heart this morning as I read.

Luke 12:33 NASB says this...

“Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

While these verses and what they say is not found in Matthew, Luke is describing the same time of teaching where Jesus spoke of the birds of the air and the lilies of the field in Matthew 6. It undoubtedly was something that Jesus taught in connection with this issue that was simply not mentioned in Matthew 6.

But the idea of selling all, giving to the poor, and following Jesus is not just found in Luke 12.

Look at what He said to the rich young ruler who came to Him and asked Him what he could do to inherit eternal life.

Luke 18:22 NASB

He said to him, “One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

And here is Jesus teaching on what it takes to be His disciple (i.e. to trust Him and follow Him as a Teacher from God and as the Messiah).

Luke 14:26 (and following) NASB

“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.“Therefore, salt is good; but if even salt has become tasteless, with what will it be seasoned? It is useless either for the soil or for the manure pile; it is thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

I have highlighted and underlined some parts that I want to draw attention to.

The parables of Jesus in support of what He said talk of a man building a tower and king going out to battle. The one building a tower first sits down and calculates the cost of constructing the tower to make sure he has enough to complete it. The king also determines whether he has enough forces to win the coming battle before he engages in battle.

The "So then" is saying...in view of these parables and in view of what I have said about disciples hating everything and anyone when contrasted with the love they have for me....none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

The "Therefore" again connects what He is about to say with what He just said.

Namely that if people do not live as His disciples on His terms that they are fit for nothing with respect to the Kingdom of God!

Now the first question is...did Jesus actually tell people to sell ALL, give to the poor, and follow Him? Is that really what He meant people to do? To that question I believe there can be no other answer than YES! That is EXACTLY what He told people to do.

The next question then becomes are we of today to do that ourselves in following Christ?

A bit more difficult to answer and we must be careful that we do not start applying something that may have only been meant to be applied by the direct disciples of the Lord during the time of His life on earth.

But...I am not at all inclined to believe the usual excuses and rationalizations put out by professing believers who overall seem more inclined to hang on to their lives than give them up in service to Him. But how would we then live? IRRELEVANT! While there may be lots of questions and potential problems with applying what Jesus said to do my ONLY concern is whether or not Jesus said to do something and meant for that something to be applied by ALL Christians. That's it! I don't give a hoot about the practical problems involved in applying something Jesus said to do. I could care less about such considerations. I DON'T CARE!

And neither should you if you are following Jesus and trusting in Him in the person of who He said He was. The only consideration on your heart as it is in mine is to understand what Jesus taught and to apply it in so far as we are to apply things today.

Let's look at what the New Testament Christians did to see if we can gain some insight as to whether or not Jesus's words were meant to be applied by ALL Christians after He ascended to heaven.

Acts 2:41 NASB

So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common; and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.

Hmm...does that sound like an application of what Jesus taught to you? It sure does to me!

Selling their property and possessions and sharing them with all. Having all things in common. You bet! That's Jesus alright.

These actions are anathema to our modern, sophisticated, covetous, and incredibly materialistic religious mindset but that IS what Jesus taught and modeled it seems to me.

The idea of hoarding for ourselves as we are so prone to do today and accumulating to ourselves all manner of things that we do not really need while others around us suffer true need was absolutely foreign to Jesus and to the Christians involved in the first church (which church would have been closer to what Jesus taught and maintaining it's integrity than those that followed later...though of course the Holy Spirit makes up for that by helping those of now understand what Jesus said too).

Even the idea of "investing" in HUGE church buildings and spending countless MILLIONS on them would have gone against the grain of what Jesus taught and the examples set by Him and New Testament Christians!

How can we justify our modern day multi-million dollar church buildings (respecting churches that have such of course) in light of what we see Jesus teaching and the New Testament Christians practicing where they SOLD what they had and gave to those in need among them? WE CAN'T!!

People in need are routinely turned away by those who treasure their church buildings! It happens all the time. I've even had it happen in my life!

One time as an example, I can't recall the exact circumstances as to why I ended up as a I did financially, I ran out of food! I had nothing! I found myself without a bus pass to get around to feeds that might have been available. Nothing! No car. No money at all. Nothing to eat. No job. Nothing I could sell. NOTHING!

And I got hungry. VERY hungry!

I am not one to go around begging. In fact I have NEVER had to beg and I simply don't go around asking for handouts believing that God knows my needs and will provide for me as He has faithfully done for years. But this particular time it seemed that the Lord laid it on my heart to call churches (I had a laptop and was living in a rented 5th wheel in someone's back yard so I could call out using Skype...I had no cell phone) to see about being able to clean their toilets or something in exchange for a cheap loaf of bread. As much as I hated doing so (at that time I despised what the church of today had become when contrasted with what it was in the New Testament...still do in many respects) I yielded to what the Lord seemed to be leading me to do and started calling churches.

To make a long story short only ONE of THIRTY that I contacted even offered to bring me some food! ONE! ONE! ONE!!!! ONE!

But I told that one to let me keep calling to see if anyone else might be willing to let me clean their toilets or something in exchange for some food. You see that particular church was run by a woman pastor and in part I did not want to accept a gift from a church that was operating in less than a god honoring manner in that regard. At least that is how I thought at the time. So I kept calling. Unfortunately I was never able to contact that person again after the others had borne no fruit in terms of helping me get something to eat.

Only ONE even asked about my spiritual welfare but that one, when they found out I was a Christian, LEFT ME HUNGRY!!!!!!!

I cannot begin to tell you how disgusting that is not only to me but to GOD!

So there I was having called thirty churches! NOTHING. No food! HUNGRY like you would not believe. Have you ever been hungry? I mean really hungry? Where you have NO food and have no way of getting anymore. I would not want that on my worst enemy (if I had any). It's a terrible thing to have to endure. But there I was.

As I prayed over things and brought my concerns before the Lord He caused me to remember that I had that very day been scheduled to go do some window cleaning nearby (within walking distance). I immediately got up, got my equipment, and headed over to the business in question assuming that the Lord was going to provide for me that way.

When I got there they said "Oh sorry. We don't need the window cleaning today." My heart sank but as I was turning around to walk out the lady at the counter said "But...would you be willing to take out our garbage and do some regular cleaning today?". Who. Me? Take out garbage bags and vacuum? You've got to be kidding I said to myself but outwardly I said "SURE!".

I did the cleaning. I got my $25 which is what I would have made through my window cleaning and as SOON as I was done I took the first bus along and headed straight for HOMETOWN BUFFET!! Rejoicing like you would not believe that GOD had provided for me even if the church had turned it's back on me!

I say all that to say this.

Imagine if ONE, just ONE, church sold their big, fat, fancy building and GAVE the money to those in need! Do you think that would have an impact? Perhaps more of an impact in glorifying God and promoting His Kingdom among the lost than that last 100 sermons preached in that church? You bet! I think so.

But we of today are so caught up in coveting things and money and in funding our grandiose buildings and programs that we completely miss or ignore what Jesus said.

Sell all and give to the poor and come follow me!

This requires some prayer of course and certainly we need to meditate and think about and discuss this more I think but when push comes to shove I don't think we are able to so easily get around the words of Jesus and the example set by Him and the New Testament disciples.

Acts 4:32 NASB

And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them. And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all. For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales and lay them at the apostles’ feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.

I don't know about you all but I want to get back to being what they were and doing what they did to see what they saw happen. Don't you?

Carlos

[Fez]

I have a bit oif a different take on the Luke scripture..

Luk 18:19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

Luk 18:20 You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.'"

Luk 18:21 And he said, "All these I have kept from my youth."

Luk 18:22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

Luk 18:23 But when he heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich.

Luk 18:24 Jesus, seeing that he had become sad, said, "How difficult it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!

Luk 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God."

Here is this rich young dude, who is telling Jesus he has obeyed the law from his youth.

Jesus points out to him, not because he is rich, but because he loves money (law again, and Jesus uses it to show him that no one, not one, can keep the law), that he is not as perfect as he would like to think.

Jesus also uses the word 'difficult", not "impossible" for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom.

NOT because they are wealthy, but because some of them (hence difficult, and not impossible), love money.

It is just as difficult for a serial adulterer or thief or someone who does not honor their parents to enter heaven as it is for a person, rich or poor, who puts money before God and makes it their idol.

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh357, on 14 May 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

There is a line bewtween faith and presumption. If a person is able-bodied, they really should work. To expect God to simply provide while we sit around and do nothing is presumptuous. God provides, but even Scripture it says if a man does not work, he should not eat. We should trust God to provide what we need and that includes providing some kind of gainful employment.

There are those whom God provides for who cannot work due to injury or infirmity, but for those of us who can work we should work and trust the Lord to provide in the process. God does not condone laziness. Proverbs 6: 6-11 gives a strong exhortation to work. Working and saving for the future is a biblical admonishment. It is wise to be industrious and to save up in times of plenty for the lean times. The Bible puts a high premium on the practical wisdom of hard work.

I agree Shiloh except for the thought of saving for the future. I am not sure that such is biblical at least as far as what Jesus taught and New Testament Christians practiced is concerned.

Of course it is biblical. The Lord used Joseph to interpret a vision for Pharoah to warn him of an impending famine. They were able to save for the future and as a result, when the famine hit there was enough food saved and stored to keep the people from starving. Again, the Bible, in Proverbs uses the example of the ant that works and saves for the future as a picture of godly wisdom. It doesn't just have to come from the NT.

To say that the NT doesn't teach saving for the future goes back to the issue presumption. Saving for the future and being able to provide for our own needs is wise and enables us to help those in need (not those who game the system because they are too lazy to get a job and carry their own weight). It is the sluggard who never works, never saves and then expects others to come behind him and clean up his mess that the Bible despises.

We are to operate in presumption and put God to the test. Thinking we can abandon caution as an act of faith is EXACTLY what Satan tried to get Jesus to do on the pinnacle of the Temple. "Throw yourself off because God will catch you." The stuff you are suggesting is really no different. "Don't save, don't prepare for the future because God will catch you." That is not faith and is not biblical. It is testing God and is specifically commanded agasint in Scripture.

I guess the issue is whether or not we are trusting in God or trusting in our retirement accounts to meet future needs.

It is not a case of either/or. We save AND we trust God. We trust God, but there is also something God hardwired us with, and that is called commonsense. God has never promised that we can just sit around and expect Him to send us money or whatever. Doing nothing is not trusting God. I can trust God as I save and prepare for the future.

[carlos123]

I don't know about you all, but Jesus said the Poor will always be with you, and I sure ain't gonna be one of them....... My father lives on streets of Gold, and Daddy is far from broke.

Be blessed.

Ahem...hmm...slight correction if I might.

"I don't know about you all, but Jesus said the Poor will always be with you, and I sure ain't gonna be one of them if God wills that I not be" There...that's better I think.

May you never go hungry or be homeless or otherwise fall into need believeinhim BUT sometimes God wills that such things happen even to the best among us. God does NOT promise us a bed of roses and a nice good, American dream life. He promises us Himself. We are to be content with food and clothing (essentially sustinance and shelter) anything more than that is coveting what God does not promise to provide.

What's worse in our modern day form of Christianity is that many claim more than this by supposed faith as their birthright so that they can spend what they get on their own pleasures. We don't desire more for the welfare of others or for the Kingdom of God's sake but that we might enjoy a better life. Oh to be sure there are those who claim to want more for the Kingdom of God's sake but they are more prone to pray for more when they themselves are the reciepients of the more.

If we are so interested in more for the Kingdom of God's sake we would as soon be interested in someone else having the more as we are in that the more come through us.

Paul's life is in stark contrast to the whole wealth and prosperity business.

1 Corinthians 4:9 NASB

For, I think, God has exhibited us apostles last of all, as men condemned to death; because we have become a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men. We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are prudent in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are distinguished, but we are without honor. To this present hour we are both hungry and thirsty, and are poorly clothed, and are roughly treated, and are homeless; and we toil, working with our own hands; when we are reviled, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure; when we are slandered, we try to conciliate; we have become as the scum of the world, the dregs of all things, even until now.

I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me. For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church.

That don't sound like the result of of a wealth and prosperity teaching at all to me. I am not saying that you think such believeinhim but just saying as part of this discussion.

By the way I do not believe Paul meant that we are to follow him into being hungry and homeless type of thing. That would be silly.

Rather I believe Paul is telling us to follow him in how he dedicated his life to the cause of Christ even to the point of being hungry and homeless and suffering what he did.

We are to give our ALL to God in service to Him.

That will cost us! BIG TIME!

As it did Jesus (they crucified Him), Peter (they crucified him too), Paul (they killed him and he suffered terribly in following Christ). We are called to suffer in the cause of Christ and to surrender our lives to Him.

1 Peter 4:4 NASB

Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

In the Kingdom of God we cannot have our cake and eat it too.

We either cater to ourselves and make it our aim to live the good life on this earth OR we follow in the footsteps of Jesus and into suffering loss in this life as a result. Whether that loss involves loss of material comforts, reputation in the eyes of the world, loss of relationships, loss of jobs for righteousness sake or what have you. Following Christ involves loss. We are to deny ourselves and follow in the footsteps of Jesus no matter what it costs us.

Some of us will not endure as much suffering as others. Some of us will be better off than others of us. But we will ALL suffer loss IF we are truly following Jesus.

Carlos