Islam in America

[OneLight]

What will happen when the man of perdition comes and preaches false doctrine, trying to deceive even the very elect if you cannot see what is right in front of you in real life? It looks good, sounds good, feels good ... it must be good?!?

Is that directed at me?

If so, why do you think a difference of opinion makes me blind? I could just as easily say the same about you but that doesn't serve any pupose to further discussion and reach common ground.

Yes, to you and any other person who is ready to turn a blind eye to the truth about a lie. You may see my words as being spoken out of malice, but the truth is I said this out of concern. When you take what their religion claims and try to make it all null and void out of blind trust, you open yourself to the desire of believing just about anything in the name of peace.

Why is it that you can't see the forest past the tree?

[other one]

-What sources does he have that tie the MB with nearly every major Muslim organization? Some funding? How much? What is their actual connection? I find it very hard to believe that the MB directly oversees all/most Muslim organizations in the US.

Well here lies my problem with you..... see that documentation took up about three hours the second morning and was part of a 200+ page power point presentation viewing all the legal documents showing who was in leader positions in the MB and what positions they filled in the list of Muslim organizations and the boards they serve on.

Looking at who owns the buildings and land that almost all Mosque's are built on.... text books of what is being taught in their schools. Satalite views of the training camps they use here and manuals that came from them.

When you've spent hundreds of hours attending meetings and studying thier very own written materials, it is impossible for me to share all that for you won't even take the time to read the small amount I've put here.

So, i'll just leave it and you can carry on with life and hopefully enough people will get the message to get our government to understand the danger before we turn into a France and/or Briton. We are following the same path that both of them took and it would be insanity to think we could do the same thing without having the same effect.

Edited May 31, 2012 by other one

[JustinM]

quote Oh Hamburgers!: "I suppose if you support the world view that moderate muslims don't exist you can take it only one way: that 1.5 billion people (the 21% of the earth that is muslim) is altogether evil."

More people than that are evil. Anyone that is not Christian, is evil in the eyes of the Lord.. They are idolators. They are breaking the 10 Commandments.

[JustinM]

When have you ever heard about Christians going into a region in the world, establishing militant training camps, and making plans to subvert a government? No, Christians are pretty open about their intentions and missionary work.

Why do muslims plan their deeds covertly? It's because they are subversive at their core.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

quote Oh Hamburgers!: "I suppose if you support the world view that moderate muslims don't exist you can take it only one way: that 1.5 billion people (the 21% of the earth that is muslim) is altogether evil."

More people than that are evil. Anyone that is not Christian, is evil in the eyes of the Lord.. They are idolators. They are breaking the 10 Commandments.

How many people have you met in this world that are evil? As in, you spent some time with them and made the judgment that they were evil? Can you walk me through your reasoning?

If anyone that is not Christian is evil in the eyes of the Lord, then how do you explain His will to preach the word across the world and convert others to Christianity? How could evil men be true Christians?

Or perhaps we have different definitions of the word "evil"... I guess I'm thinking of a lasting evil, whereas maybe you think evil is more temporary?

Also if breaking the 10 commandments makes someone evil... oh boy. Saying OMG has probably damned 90% of the country!

When have you ever heard about Christians going into a region in the world, establishing militant training camps, and making plans to subvert a government? No, Christians are pretty open about their intentions and missionary work.

Why do muslims plan their deeds covertly? It's because they are subversive at their core.

Well historically countries that are predominantly Christian haven't had to subvert a government: they have the resources to simply set up a new one

[Guest shiloh357]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I can tell you are very passionate about this issue.

I suppose if you support the world view that moderate muslims don't exist you can take it only one way: that 1.5 billion people (the 21% of the earth that is muslim) is altogether evil. They all desire Sharia law and will use violence whenever an opportunity arises. Any muslims in America are part of a global conspiracy to overthrow our democracy and institute a theocratic state.

I am not stating an "opinion." I am working off of observable fact and historical fact. People like you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to Islam. Your naivete is glaringly obvious.

Islam doesn't classify its members as "radical vs. moderate." Those are western labels. Saudi Arabia funds and trains terrorists, but we have an interest in their oil. So... Viola! They are no longer a terrorist state; they are suddently "moderate." There are Islamists here in the US who may not engage in violent terrorism, but they finanically support terror cells and have operated "charities" in the US that were used to funnel money to the terrorists. Those who engage in nonviolent methods have the same goal, even if the method is different. Radical is not equivalent with "violent." One can be radical in ideaology without being violent in their method. That someone is not nonviolent doesn't make them "moderate." Yes, Islamits here in the US want Sharia law. Find a trully committed Muslim who would not want Sharia law implemented in the US.

If you knowingly give aid, training, finanical support, sustenance, shelter, comfort, ideas, opportunities and inspiration to those who would seek to overthrow our constitution in favor of Sharia law, are enemies of the state. Those US citizens who defend such are enemies of the state

or

You can instead support the notion that religions - like people - often have different gradients to them.

Islam, by its own definition of itself isn't a religion in the convention use of that term. They recognize no separation of religion and state. Islam is a government, which is why it adheres to Sharia law, which is why they see Sharia law as a rival to the US Constitution. No other "religion" does that. The very name "Islam" means "submission." Their entire ideaology has historically centered around forcing the world to submit to Sharia law. They have actively spread Islam by the sword whereever possible. When they build a mosque on our soil, in Muslim law, that becomes sovereign Muslim territory, meaning that they see it as victory over the US. That is not "radical" thinking, it is Islamic thinking.

The problem is that people like you have no frame of reference for Islamic thought. Over here in the west, we are fed the line that Muslims are just like us and seek the same freedom that we seek. Yet, they immigrate from Islamic countries!! What freedom to be Muslim can we offer that isn't already offered in Islamic countries??? They don't come here seeking freedom. They hate our freedom. They come here to enslave us to islam. And they have people like you running interference for them and trying to tell the rest of us that they deserve what we have, and the truth is that they don't. But you are generally ignorant where Islam is concerned (not that you are going to let that get in the way). They bank on the general ignorance of Amerians like you.

There are no gradients in Islam. It doesn't work that way. Islam recognizes no gradients. That is western thinking and it doesn't apply to Islam, and never has.

Religion means different things to different people and some allow it to guide their lives and decisions more than others. In the same way people are not purely good or evil - people have flaws and they have good qualities. Some more than others, on either side. But certainly people are complicated and have different hopes, desires, fears, etc.

The problem here is that you are confusing being a good Muslim with being a good person. If I want to determine if a Muslim is a good Muslim, then the plumline, the standard of who is or is not a good Muslim should logically be the founder of Islam. Christians' deeds or misdeeds are always being judged against the teachings of Jesus. So logically, if we want to know who is or is not a good and devout Muslim, we need to examine them against Muhommed, the founder of Islam. Muhammed was a muderer, a psychopath, a pedophile and a thief. He advocated and carried out numerous acts of violence against peaceful people, including Jews. Logically, a good Muslim will resemble the life and teachings of Muhommed who was an altogether evil person.

One cannot be a good person and be a devout follower of the life and teachings of Muhammed. One cannot be a good person AND a good Muslim if we measure a Muslim against the founder of Islam.

In my lifetime I have observed time and time again that the second viewpoint seems to fall in line with how the world works, and the first viewpoint often oversimplifies things and leads to fear, hate, and suffering. What world-view do you have, and what world have you observed in your lifetime?

Ha! Your "lifetime." That's rich. You are so naive and sorry, but there is a difference between the limited scope of your experience and the reality that is occuring all around us.

Islam is entirely different than conventional religions and doesn't play by the same rules. It has no intention of being equal, but is bent up making the world, Islam. They have made no secret about it either. The problem is that people like you operate from the false view that its just a small number of radicals making that claim. The "radicals" are not 1% of lslam. Islamic ideaology is violent and evil to the core. If you don't think so, all you have to do is look at how Islam treats nonMuslims in their countries. Islamic nations are among the chief violators of human rights in the world. islamic nations have deplorable human rights records, some of the worst in the world.

But their sappy liberal lap dogs here in the US, still try to paint Islam as a peaceful "religion." Sometimes the enemy within the gate is worse than the enemy from without.

[OneLight]

You can check this out for yourself. This was reported as long ago as 2009.

Military.com

You can find many more here ...

You can even go to you tube and search for "Muslims of America - Homegrown Jihad (1 of 7) " and watch the whole documentary, all 7 parts.

It is time to open your eyes, my friend.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

I am not stating an "opinion." I am working off of observable fact and historical fact. People like you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to Islam. Your naivete is glaringly obvious.

If you are taking evidence of some muslims being violent (of which there certainly is) and then using that to claim that all muslims are in the same ilk (WITHOUT evidence) then that's an opinion.

Anyways I would appreciate it if you didn't insult me personally when debating; saying I'm naive, ignorant and saying things like "the problem with people like you" isn't going to help us see eye to eye on anything here. Until you can treat me with some basic respect I am not interested in having further discussion about this topic with you.

@ Onelight, the video is disturbing, I would need to look more into those events, because when I see that a website called military.com hosts a Fox news link that references information gained from the Christian action network, immediately my "biased view" alarms go off. Still the video is pretty disconcerting given the violent nature of the images. I would want to know more about it though - firing ranges and self defense training camps do exist in this country - all of that is perfectly legal to have, guns obviously are protected under 2nd amendment rights. Not saying that explains away the video, but it could be more legitimate than it was made out to appear.

I also haven't argued the fact that there are those in the country that are extremists and those that do desire to do harm to the country - not just muslims either. However the sticking point I've been trying to make is the reaction I've seen is a desire to demonize all muslims or find a way to remove all of them from the country. That I don't agree with because I don't see the proof and I know enough moderate muslims to know they are very similar to us with their desires, life goals, fears, etc. They are human just like us. Some are bad apples and deserve to be imprisoned, you get no argument from me there.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Oh Hamburgers!

[Guest shiloh357]

If you are taking evidence of some muslims being violent (of which there certainly is) and then using that to claim that all muslims are in the same ilk (WITHOUT evidence) then that's an opinion.

I am saying and have noted what has been in the news that Muslim charities have been found in the US that funnel money to supoort islamic terrorism. What i am saying is that while the methods differ the goal is the same. Islam uses terrorism as a means of achieving its agenda. What we call "terrorism" is nothing more than historical violent nature of islam. Islam has always been violent. But that violence needs financial support. It costs money to commit acts of terrorism and there are "charities" used to that end.

In the 80s and 90s, Yasir Arafat established charities in the name of the Palestinian Authority. People gave to those charities thinking that the money was being used to help poor Palestinians. It was later discovered that much of the money went to Arafat's personal Swiss bank account and the rest was used to make bombs. The money was used to support terror, not to help the poor. But gullible people in the west didn't realize that they were being lied to and fed a line that they were helping the poor Palestians who were being hurt by the mean ol' Jews. The money also ended being used to purchase weapons used by the Palestinian "police" to kill Palestinians who questioned terror as a means of achieving a political agenda. Westerners who thought they were helping, were only being used to support terrorism.

I also haven't argued the fact that there are those in the country that are extremists and those that do desire to do harm to the country - not just muslims either. However the sticking point I've been trying to make is the reaction I've seen is a desire to demonize all muslims or find a way to remove all of them from the country. That I don't agree with because I don't see the proof and I know enough moderate muslims to know they are very similar to us with their desires, life goals, fears, etc. They are human just like us. Some are bad apples and deserve to be imprisoned, you get no argument from me there.

You have never, ever met a "moderate" Muslim in your life. They don't exist. What you have met are people who are too westernized and modernized to be genuine Muslims. They are not even considered Muslims by their eastern counterparts living in genuine muslim countries. There are those who are nominal (name only) Muslims, but they don't follow the Muslim ideaology. Many are western converts to a watered version that tries to pass itself off as Islamic, when it is nothing of the sort.

I know a girl at my school who converted to Islam and then deconverted from Islambecause she realized that what she had been told about Islam was nothing like she experienced when she converted. The inferior view of women, her own "husband" had participated in an honor killing in Egypt, she was abused emotionally, sexually and physically. She lived in constant fear that a wrong word or action would result in another beating. And her husband was not a terrorist. He was a traditional Muslim man. She was fed lines about the value of women in Islam, and religious freedom and peace and all of that, and she discovered that it was all a great big lie used to hide the ugly face of Islam. She still lives in fear and has nightmares. All thanks to Sharia law and what the west calls "moderate Islam." Even that part of islam that is not comprised of terrorists is still violent towards its own people. It is altogether evil. Islam is a violent religion and we are not just talking about terrorism.

In what you call "moderate Mulsim" nations, there is the violence that occurs on a regular basis toward other Muslims. The human rights violations, spousal abuse, child molestation, gender apartheid, and other horrific things that occur is a regular way of life in islam. That doesn't even include the way nonMuslims that have the misfortune living in a Muslim nation are treated. NonMuslims are less than second class citizens and live under the threat of murder. Dhimmis (nonMuslims) have no freedoms in Muslim nations and their children must be raised as Muslims. There is no freedom of religion, freedom of speech, free press, or free elections. If you have the courage to oppose your leaders you are killed without hestitation. It seems that people in the west simiply don't understand islam.

You cannot, and will not get an accurate picture of islam by looking at nominal, westernized "muslims" in the US. One MUST look at how Islam behaves in nations where Islam is the ruling authority to get a better picture of what Islam is REALLY like.

Why don't you address how genuine Islam behaves in Muslim nations?? Why don't you address the deplorable human rights records of Muslim countries like Syria, Iran, Egypt and other Muslim countries??? Stop trying to define Islam by the watered down name-only "islam" that exists in the US.

[Elcule]

When have you ever heard about Christians going into a region in the world, establishing militant training camps, and making plans to subvert a government? No, Christians are pretty open about their intentions and missionary work.

You are surely not serious?!

Militant Training Camps: Bolivia, Cuba, Congo, Laos.

Subverting Governments: Chile, Iran, Iraq, Guatemala, Nigaragua, Cuba, Congo, Vietnam.

And that's just the C.I.A of Christian America in the last 50 years!!! (all of those events that lunatic of an interviewer seemed to forget)

That's not to mention Hitler doing God's work taking over half of Europe, The British Empire expanding under the name of the Queen (the Head of the Church of England) taking over 1/4 of the world, the Crusades, the Spanish Conquest of the Americas in God's name, the Norman invasion of England.

All people are equally bad when they believe they have devine justification for their acts of war.

And whoever wrote that ridiculous post about Muslims lying to their enemies because it's permitted in the Koran, well, It was only 200 years ago that the Bible was still being used to condone slavery. A more recent example would be that "pastor" using the Bible to get people to smash their kids in with a rod.

Let's have some perspective and respect for one another please, some people don't seem to understand when they themselves are being just as extremist as the people they propse to be combatting.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Elcule