Christian Zionism

[rich08]

We believe that all life is precious and Yeshua came for every person, wanting that none should perish. That perspective demands that the truth is supreme, though, and we aren't getting it from the anti-zionists (which is only another word for anti-semitic) who try to make police action of defending innocent civilians by Israel the moral equivalent of car bombs and suicide bombers from recognized terrorist organizations, like the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, or any of the various names used by these violent paramilitary groups

Being anti-zionist does not automatically make one anti-semitic. There are jews who are anti-zionist.

I owe an apology - I agreed with yod earlier but hadn't picked up the bit in bold above. I do agree that being anti-zionist does not make you anti-semitic. Thank KatyAnn for spotting that bit.

[nebula]

I happen to agree with the Jews who feel this way. Funny how agreeing with orthodox jews makes one anti-semitic.

Orthodox Jews also do not believe in Jesus and many persecute Jews who do come to faith in Messiah Yeshua.

Likewise, Orthodox Judaism is a redefinition of the faith after the Temple was destroyed, a works-based faith rather than a faith-based faith.

While true in some cases.....(The nation-state of Israel does not look favorable upon Messianic Jews).... this has nothing to do with my point.

Sure, but consider the theology of which side you are alligning yourself with in this.

My point was addressed to Yod's inaccurate assertion that if one is not a zionist...they are anti-semitic.

There are actual reasons for the two to be considered tied together -

In the half-century since World War II, public anti-Semitism has become much less frequent in the Western world. While stereotypes about Jews remain common, Jews face little physical danger. The hatred of Jewishness and the conspiracy beliefs of past eras are for the most part shared only by tiny numbers of those on the fringes of society (although as the World Trade Center and Oklahoma bombings showed, even a handful of extremists can carry out acts of great violence). There are exceptions, of course: disagreement over policy toward the State of Israel has created opportunities in which the expression "Zionist" - support for Israel as the Jewish homeland - is often used as an anti-Semitic code word for "Jew" in mainstream debate. Holocaust denial and other recent re-writings of history - such as the false claim that Jews controlled the Atlantic slave trade - lie about the events of the past in order to make Jews seem underhanded and evil.

More seriously, many nations in Europe and in the former Soviet empire are struggling, mostly due to unsettled or chaotic economic and social conditions, with movements opposing "foreigners" - including recent immigrants and traditional enemies. These movements champion racial or national supremacy, and call for the type of charismatic, authoritarian leader that historically persecuted Jews and other minorities.

But while parts of Europe remain caught up in racial unrest, the Middle East is home to the harshest anti-Semitism in the world today. Nazi-like language is regularly expressed by the media and governments in the countries that oppose Israel and the West. And as dozens and dozens of terrorist incidents have demonstrated, there are many in Middle Eastern countries willing to act on these beliefs.

http://www.adl.org/hate-patrol/antisemitism.asp

[other one]

I in no way support anyone who is against Jews. I am simply pointing out that not all Jews feel the same way.

I neither support nor condemn any article I post, so there is no reason to argue the articles merits with me. I simply post them as evidence to back up my claim that not all against zionism are anti-semetic.

Thank you.....

[jasoncran]

that is rare amongst the jews to my knowledge and many of my family is orthodox.i dont recall any of them saying isreal is a bad idea.

[Guest yod]

MARTIN LUTHER KING ON ZIONISM

"Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend"

"... You declare, my friend; that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist'. And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of G-D's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews -- this is G-D's own truth.

"Anti-Semitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agree-ment. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently anti-Semitic, and ever will be so.

"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tryant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered our L-RD. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.

"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested -- DEMANDED -- the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.

"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfillment of G-D's promise, that His people should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land. This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.

"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is anti-Semitism.

"The anti-Semite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the anti-Semite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerrade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!

"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate anti-Semitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled -- as others have been -- into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to those heartfelt principles that you and I share. Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews -- make no mistake about it."

From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend,"

Saturday Review XLVII (August 1967), pg. 76

Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.")

[rich08]

Okay so we have a debate about whether Christian Zionism is anti-semitic or not. I'm sure it's possible to produce multiple quotes from people on different sides of the argument too.

Personally I'm still undecided and trying to future out what the Bible says on the matter: one thing I am still trying to get my mind round in relation to the Christian Zionist position is this question:

'If I am a Jew living today in the third millennium, and I do not believe in Jesus Christ, then where do I stand in terms of my eternal destiny?'

[nebula]

Eternal destiny is based upon having been grafted into Yeshua.

[Guest yod]

Okay so we have a debate about whether Christian Zionism is anti-semitic or not. I'm sure it's possible to produce multiple quotes from people on different sides of the argument too.

I'm not so sure you could produce reasonable statements from credible people who are anti-zionist. Why don't you try to find some anti-zionists who are not anti-semitic (nor part of this extremely small fringe group of orthodox jews)

Personally I'm still undecided and trying to future out what the Bible says on the matter: one thing I am still trying to get my mind round in relation to the Christian Zionist position is this question:

'If I am a Jew living today in the third millennium, and I do not believe in Jesus Christ, then where do I stand in terms of my eternal destiny?'

????

That is an unrelated topic, so I'd like to know why you think there is any linkage? To me, that is as unrelated as asking who will vote for Romney based on the color of bread in Somalia during the 13th century.

[rich08]

Okay so we have a debate about whether Christian Zionism is anti-semitic or not. I'm sure it's possible to produce multiple quotes from people on different sides of the argument too.

I'm not so sure you could produce reasonable statements from credible people who are anti-zionist. Why don't you try to find some anti-zionists who are not anti-semitic (nor part of this extremely small fringe group of orthodox jews)

Yod - please bear with me here. I am trying to examine the issues and placing ultimate importance in understanding what scripture says.

You start from the presuposition that your position is correct; therefore based on the position you argue the anti-Zionists are anti-semitic by their very nature.

If however you believe that Scripture should not be interpreted to mean a physical return of a nation of Israel to her historic lands (I know you will disagree with me) I cannot see how to state that this is your understanding of the Bible makes you anti-semitic.

And how do you define credible? Yes I listen to wise Biblical scholars - but they are not infallible - and often disagree. A quick google search will show famous people taking different positions of both sides of the argument. A position is not in itself right because someone famous says it is - it is right because Scripture says it is (and that's why I keep emphasising the importance of looking at what Scripture says).

Personally I'm still undecided and trying to future out what the Bible says on the matter: one thing I am still trying to get my mind round in relation to the Christian Zionist position is this question:

'If I am a Jew living today in the third millennium, and I do not believe in Jesus Christ, then where do I stand in terms of my eternal destiny?'

????

That is an unrelated topic, so I'd like to know why you think there is any linkage? To me, that is as unrelated as asking who will vote for Romney based on the color of bread in Somalia during the 13th century.

Well having researched Christian Zionism some argue that the same theology and scriptures (used to argue for a physical return to Israel in this age) also advocate that Jews can be saved without a faith in Christ based on promises in the OT Scriptures ( a position called dual covenant theology).

[Guest yod]

Yod - please bear with me here. I am trying to examine the issues and placing ultimate importance in understanding what scripture says.

You start from the presuposition that your position is correct; therefore based on the position you argue the anti-Zionists are anti-semitic by their very nature.

My views on zionism have almost nothing to do with the scriptures. It's a humanitarian and political debate whether jews (or anyone else) have the right to live in their own land.

My views about being cursed or blessed (based on how one responds to that question) is very much a scriptural position, however.

And how do you define credible?

1. Someone who does not use lies to advance an agenda.

2. Someone who is seeking the truth, regardless of their own bias.

3. Someone who is willing to accept the truth when it goes counter to what they would desire.

4. Someone who puts life, and protecting the innocent, above political concerns.

So again I challenge you to post any credible anti-zionist statements and let them be examined for veracity. I don't think you can find any, but I'll wait....

Yes I listen to wise Biblical scholars - but they are not infallible - and often disagree. A quick google search will show famous people taking different positions of both sides of the argument. A position is not in itself right because someone famous says it is - it is right because Scripture says it is (and that's why I keep emphasising the importance of looking at what Scripture says).

Fame doesn't make anyone credible.

if you're referring to me quoting Martin Luther King Jr, his credibility comes not from fame, but from being someone who was willing to die for what is TRUE and right.

Well having researched Christian Zionism some argue that the same theology and scriptures (used to argue for a physical return to Israel in this age) also advocate that Jews can be saved without a faith in Christ based on promises in the OT Scriptures ( a position called dual covenant theology).

There may be a very minute few who think that way. They are wrong, but again, it has nothing to do with whether the jewish people have the right to live in their land.

I have met a few misguided christians who think we can hasten the return of the Lord through human action. For example, I was once asked to contribute to a fund helping The Temple Mount Faithful to rebuild the Temple. This is foolishness, because they are only asking for a self-fulfilled prophecy instead of God-fulfilled one. These are the "Left Behind" brand of dispensationalists. Yes, they would necessarily be included in "christian zionists" but again, most of us in the zionist camp simply believe that Jews have a right to live in their own homeland.

I'm not particularly basing the phrase "in their own homeland" on the scriptures either. It is their homeland because jews began reclaiming the deserts and swamps of the region known as Palestine in the late 1800s. They worked for it, they bought it, they made it blossom, and they cared for it when no one else did. THAT is what makes it their homeland.

The scriptures confirm that this would happen in the end of days, so rather than saying scripture demands that they do this to fulfill the prophets, I say that scripture confirms this is the fulfillment of prophecy because they did.

A subtle but important difference.