How can I trust God to bring physical healing to others?

[NeedYouLord]

I found the other thread-hahaha-here it is...Yes Openly Curious...Yes Yes...I agree-whole heartily...Seek and don't stop...God gives liberally!!!

Also I heard this one time: Every single person I pray for or lay hands on...is healed...I rest in that...It may not be instantly...I still rest in that...they are healed!!!

[Sevenseas]

Your signs are coming.......be patient.

myeh. perhaps one could pray for rain like the prophet...and he was just one man

I'm just too sarcastic so I toned it down...

Sometimes we miss the little things while looking out for the big ones. Our lives are full of God's signs and wonders.

Another thing is that God will not pour new wine into old vines. We must be of a broken spirit and of a humble mind to enable the Holy Spirit to operate freely through us. Elijah was completely dedicated to God and had a very close relationship with God, from what I gathered from the old testament.

Couppy.

The problem is, that many Christians are letting another spirit operate freely because they do not study scripture and have no discernment

Christians think that the devil cannot and will not use them, but he will and he does

Tingly feelings and goosebumps are not an indication that the presence is the Holy Spirit.

If your life is really full of signs and wonders, you may want to look up what the scriptures actually state about that type of thing

Faith, is not about signs and wonders. Jesus said that an adulterous generation seeks after signs and wonders

[Sevenseas]

Nice try to make me out to be some prophet nut or something. I didn't even mention that I thought I was a prophet till later in the thread.

I really do not have to make you out as anything Carlos. You are your own best spokesperson.

You did say what I posted, so, perhaps you might want to review yr own press

I know you are not going to listen because I am not going to say what you want me to say

I'm very good at that which makes me a trustworthy person actually, but I don't suppose you can see that

It's not a matter of toning down your sarcasm. It's a matter of whether or not sarcasm is of the Spirit or not. And if it is not...then it has no place in any discussion which might otherwise be fruitful (at least with respect to your input).

I've read yr story which you have kindly written all over the boards. I do not think you are in the position to tell others

what is and what is not for them to write

[carlos123]

I know you are not going to listen because I am not going to say what you want me to say

Well...if you have some constructive criticism of the kind that would allow me to grow in godliness through repentance of wrongdoing on my part...by all means. I will listen.

But if all you are going to do is beat up on me with your words for who knows what reason...you are absolutely correct. Your words are not worth listening to.

It's not a matter of toning down your sarcasm. It's a matter of whether or not sarcasm is of the Spirit or not. And if it is not...then it has no place in any discussion which might otherwise be fruitful (at least with respect to your input).

I've read yr story which you have kindly written all over the boards. I do not think you are in the position to tell others

what is and what is not for them to write

I am not in a position here to tell anyone to do anything at all about anything. You are right about that.

But if sarcasm is not of the Spirit and is rather of the flesh the one you are ignoring by what I said is NOT me but GOD!

I would suggest that you listen to Him for your own good if not for mine!

Carlos

[carlos123]

I was thinking and praying about some of what you all have shared (especially you Gary and Openly Curious) and I began to wonder about something.

The idea has been brought up that we grow in faith as we exercise faith. That makes sense to me. It's what I have believed to this day myself.

But is that really biblical with respect to healing?

I mean the idea that faith grows?

I am not saying that it does not definitively speaking. I am only questioning the biblical basis for that thought as to whether or not it is really the case that faith grows.

Let me put it to you all this way.

When a person comes to Christ through the Gospel such that they must make a choice and trust in God through the message of the cross by faith...is such faith something that grows or is it something that one either has or does not have at the moment of decision?

I mean you could say that faith grows as they hear the Gospel message but that's not quite accurate I think. They may hear the Gospel several times but it's not their faith that grows as a result. It's their knowledge of what the Gospel is.

Leading to a choice of faith at a moment in time when they go from having not faith in God through the Gospel to having faith. No growth there to speak of.

Next...for all the people that Jesus healed or those who were subsequently healed in the New Testament through the Apostles or others there is absolutely no indication that their healing required any growth in faith. They either had faith or they did not.

Lastly...I think of what Jesus said about a mustard seed's worth of faith...

Matthew 17:19 (AKJV)

Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? And Jesus said to them, Because of your unbelief: for truly I say to you, If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you.

A mustard seed's worth of faith being the smallest amount of true faith that anyone could have I think. Yet even with such a tiny amount of true faith...the impossible is possible.

Which again makes me wonder if it is not a matter of faith growing but rather of whether we have faith or do not.

Or perhaps it may be instead a matter of having faith in the right things.

If our faith in God is through faulty theology then we will only believe God for what we believe to be His will and to be true.

But if, for example, we think God wills to not heal someone then perhaps it will only happen to us according to our faith...that God may not heal one or may heal another such that we won't be able to trust God by faith to actually heal someone.

If anyone has any constructive thoughts about whether or not faith does in fact grow as opposed to just being there or not I would appreciate hearing them.

Carlos

[gdemoss]

Let's begin here:

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

from faith to faith...faith increasing.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

faith is measured out to us as God desires.

Luk 13:19 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.

The mustard seed grows into a great tree. I am but a 4 year old that is starting to produce some fruit.

Gary

[carlos123]

Let's begin here:

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

from faith to faith...faith increasing.

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly Gary.

Interesting. Not sure if I would say that faith to faith implies clearly that faith is increasing.

I mean faith to faith could well mean from one instance of faith to another too. Where it is not increasing but rather a matter of it just being...faith I mean. From one experience of faith to another.

There have been many ideas over the centuries as to what the phrase "faith to faith" means including that it implies a growth in faith (as only one of many different ideas about this passage). One thing is certain I think. This is one of those verses or rather phrases in a verse where it is impossible to tell for sure what the phrase "faith to faith" means since the verses themselves do not explain it.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

faith is measured out to us as God desires.

This last verse you quoted does seem to support the idea of faith being something that grows. At least on the surface.

Yet is that really the case?

The verse is not really talking about a growth in faith but rather about differences in the degree of faith that one's have. In other words some receive greater faith than others according to how God has willed to give it out.

That clearly shows that there are varying degrees of faith among us but that by itself does not definitively support the idea that the faith that God gives one can grow to be the faith that He wills to give another in my opinion.

Verse 6 sheds some additional light on this I think...

Romans 12:6 (AKJV)

Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

Again there is no growth of faith indicated but rather a measure of faith as God has given one. That we are to exercise our gifts, whatever they are and whichever one's God has given us, according to the measure, the one time measure of faith possibly, that God has graced each of us with.

I am just saying that such is another way to look at these verses Gary and that they are not absolutely clear in my reading of them...in saying that faith grows.

Luk 13:19 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.

The mustard seed grows into a great tree. I am but a 4 year old that is starting to produce some fruit.

The mustard seed does indeed grow but Jesus also said that if we have faith as tiny as that of a mustard seed that we will be able to say to a literal mountain...MOVE..and it will move such that nothing will be impossible for us.

If that is the nature of such a tiny bit of true faith then growth in faith is irrelevant, if such a thing is even true...that we grow in faith I mean, since anyone having such faith could do all that we are talking about and more! Without any growth in faith at all.

I will have to ponder and pray over this more.

Carlos

[gdemoss]

Ponder and pray indeed my friend as God will lead.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith it says. I definitely hear it telling me about progressive growth in faith as one becomes conformed to the image of Christ through the process of progressive sanctification, the spirit using the word to wash us. I recall Jesus speaking to the disciples and saying those words 'ye of little faith', sounds a bit like they had the faith of a mustard seed but it needed to grow. If the mustard seed is the least of all seeds then it would have to represent the least possible amount of faith, yet Jesus said they had faith, just very little.

The amount of faith that I have today is much greater than what I had in the beginning when I understood and believed the gospel. My faith has grown by reason of use. As I walk in the faith I have, God reveals more unto me and by it gives me more faith to walk in.

Gary

[carlos123]

I found some really good stuff through some videos and my resultant looking around that someone shared with me here.

This first link is to a blog post that talks of some PhD's and scientists doing a study of people that were supposedly healed of being deaf and of having vision problems if not outright blindness in Mozambique. Through prayer for healing.

http://letterstocrea...-in-mozambique/

The study itself (rather dry which does not make for very interesting reading but in case anyone wants to see it) is here -> http://journals.lww....Proximal.5.aspx

It is titled "Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Proximal Intercessory Prayer (STEPP) on Auditory and Visual Impairments in Rural Mozambique"

Lastly you HAVE TO WATCH the video at the next link. If you do nothing else...WATCH THIS VIDEO!

It is not a video that shows miracles. It is a video where a woman involved in the ministry in Mozambique talks of the living God in their midst.

What she says about the Western church not being poor in spirit and why it is that God seems to work through foreign cultures more often precisely because they are poor in spirit is very insightful. Heidi Baker is not some faith healer with her own television show. She is involved with thousands of poor children in Mozambique and talks of God moving to take care of them.

*** removed embedded video - please start a thread in the video section with this and link to that thread here. ***

Carlos

Edited August 12, 2012 by OneLight

[carlos123]

There is an excellent article about Iris ministries in Christianity Today.

It brought me to tears and I highly recommend that anyone interested in this topic read it.

It can be seen here -> http://www.christian...ique.html?start

Here is a quote in the article related to the PhD's and scientists I talked about in my previous post...bolding is mine...

Indiana University's Brown was so intrigued by claims of healing that she sought to verify them scientifically. With a small team she traveled to Mozambique to accompany Baker on outreaches. Testing 24 Mozambicans before and after healing prayer—half performed by Baker—her team detected statistically significant improvements in hearing and vision. (The results were published in the September 2010 edition of the Southern Medical Journal, and are available online.) Brown's team found similar results on an excursion to Brazil, but testing at charismatic gatherings in North America did not yield significant results.

Quote is from the bottom of page 5 -> http://www.christian...ue.html?start=5

Isn't that interesting? That among charismatic gatherings in North America...that they did not find a statistically significant sign of any improvement among those needing healing (presumably after being prayed for).

As usual it seems that God shows up among the poor in spirit who are desperate for Him while we in the richer nations who have everything to depend on but God...sit and watch.

Carlos