Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

[larryt]

It is not necessary for salvation, it is not a matter of age as only believers are baptised and baptising a baby has no bearing in the eyes of God whatsoever.

I disagree with this. If it has no bearing on God, then why did God ordered baptism? And why did Christ had Himself baptized? Christ did not need to have Himself baptized because He has no sin, but He did it; therefore, if Christ felt it was important for Him to undergo baptism, then it is good enough for me to follow in His example. He is afterall the Way to the Father.

It is not necessary for salvation, it is not a matter of age as only believers are baptised and baptising a baby has no bearing in the eyes of God whatsoever.

I disagree with this. If it has no bearing on God, then why did God ordered baptism? And why did Christ had Himself baptized? Christ did not need to have Himself baptized because He has no sin, but He did it; therefore, if Christ felt it was important for Him to undergo baptism, then it is good enough for me to follow in His example. He is afterall the Way to the Father.

You totally avoided a major part of my statement.

it is not a matter of age as only believers are baptised

Can you show us an example in the bible that someone is baptised that is not a believer?

[Fez]

Selene, please explain the thief on the cross vs the Catholic doctrine on baptism?

[Guest oldGrams]

I have every think upon belief !

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

[Sevenseas]

What has this have to do with baptism? This thread is about baptism. You are off-topic.

It has everything to do with baptism. If you believe your pope, then you consider Protestant Christians to be simply a sect

and not saved unless they convert to Catholicism

Further, itis also a Catholic belief that if an infant is not baptized, the also go to hell.

I find that very strange that the teaching of your church demands infant baptism as an infant cannot

even make the decision for Christ.

Baptism, is for a person who has repented and wishes to follow Christ.

To say otherwise, distorts and completely ignores Scripture.

[Sevenseas]

I agree...but some people believe that if you do NOT speak in tongues as evidence, then you are not truly saved.

At any rate, I really am not sure what hisdisciple is saying? So just wanted some clarification

Thanks

Really? Wow, I have never heard that. that has really blown my mind. I can't believe someone would say that. The thief on the cross never spoken in tongues and he went to heaven. I've always thought of the work of the Holy Spirit as 2 sepreate works, 1 at salvation one at recieving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. (Which is why Christ blew on the disciples and said recieve the Holy Spirit ( when they got saved ) , and then told them to tarry until they recieve power from on high. ) That Everyone who has been saved has the Holy Spirit within, and everyone who has the Baptism of the holy spirit has the Holy Spirit within and upon both. Which is why the bible talks about having the Holy Spirit upon and within , because there 2 differant things.The differance being both are saved, 1 is empowered for service 1 is not.

I can't imagine how that must make someone feel. Sevenseas I hope nobody ever made you feel like that. God bless

I kid you not. Not to worry...no one ever made me believe or feel that but it's interesting to learn of some of these rather strange

and non-Biblical interpretations.

I agree about the 2 separate events...but, some people disagree with that also...so...LOL...there yah go

[Jayyycuuup]

Difficulty's lol..... So this is towards your post to me Selene.......

I don't think so, your making your basis off of what Jesus told his disciples. If Christ meant what you are saying then He would have said he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned. But that is not what it says, Christ only say's he who does not believe.....so your adding to what he said. Do you have anything else to add to your claim ?

I do, that states all you have to do is accept Christ and you shall live for eternity with our Lord !

John 5:35 And Jesus said to them "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst."

John 5:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." --By saying that you have to be baptized in order to be saved would be holding your own interpretation above the words of Christ, He states that whoever COMES to Me, shall not be cast out i.e not be saved.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Scripture never said "he who believeth not and is not baptize will be damned." Those words "is not baptized" is not found in the second part of the biblical verse. You are the only one who put it there. Baptism was never excluded because 1) it was God Himself who ordered baptism, 2) Christ Himself felt it was important to have Himself baptize despite that He had no sin, 3) Christ continued to allow His disciples to baptize even after St. John the Baptist was beheaded by King Herod, and 4) Jesus told His Apostles that those who believed and are baptize will be saved. Christ did not have to put in "is not baptize" in the second part of what He said. If God feels that baptism was not necessary, He would not have gone through all the trouble to do all those 4 things I mentioned.

You just made my point. You are trying to say I was adding to scripture, but your highly wrong, my point being is that if Christ meant what you are saying then he would have said those who do not believe and are not baptized will not be saved, but it does not mean that,. nor say that. Concluding that all you have to be is saved in order to go to heaven.

Now you are trying to add to what I said, is baptism necessary ? Absolutely !! Is it a, if you dont you go to hell ? NO !! Your making your basis off of one verse that does not support your claim, I gave and still can give several more verses where Christ, and others say all you have to be is saved to enter the kingdom of God.

I think you misunderstood what I said. Christ never added "and is not baptized" in the second part of his sentence because ALL UNBELEVERS are NOT baptized. None of the unbelivers are baptized, so why should Christ add "and is not baptized" to the unbelivers. The first sentence applies only to the believers. Christ is saying, "Those who believe AND is baptized will be saved." So, those people who heard Christ's words and believed Him, but are NOT baptized......they paid attention and got themselves baptized.

During that time, there were many people who heard Christ's words. Some of those people are believers who are baptized (such as His Apostles), some are believers but NOT baptized (people who followed Him but failed to get baptized) and some are unbelievers (such as the pagan Roman soliders). So, when Christ said to this audience, "Those who believe and is baptized will be saved and those who believeth not will be damned"........the disciples who believed in HIm but didn't get baptized is going to get themselves baptized, while the Roman soldiers will just scoff at Him. Yes, there were a few Romans who heard Him. As you can see in the Bible, there was even a Roman soldier who approached Jesus asking to heal his servant, but he didn't allow Jesus to enter his home. He simply said, "Just say the word, and I know that my servant will be healed."

The Bible says that those who believed AND is baptised will be saved. Now, for those who believed and is NOT baptized, that is up to God to decide what to do with those people. That's His call. As for the unbelievers (who are not baptized at all), the Bible says that they are not saved.

AHA ! Praise you Lord !

Okay, now I can tell you Mathew 16:16 is before Christ was crucified so I think that you are correct, that they needed to be baptized and saved. But that was to the men before Christ was the bearer. You see we are washed in Christ's blood, the men before that we washed in water.... Still I think that we should be baptized, but since Christ bore the sin of the world, that is no longer a mandatory to be saved. (read Mathew 27:38-46, this is when he was crucified)

Hey Selene, Just making sure.....did you read what I posted ??

[larryt]

It is not necessary for salvation, it is not a matter of age as only believers are baptised and baptising a baby has no bearing in the eyes of God whatsoever.

I disagree with this. If it has no bearing on God, then why did God ordered baptism? And why did Christ had Himself baptized? Christ did not need to have Himself baptized because He has no sin, but He did it; therefore, if Christ felt it was important for Him to undergo baptism, then it is good enough for me to follow in His example. He is afterall the Way to the Father.

It is not necessary for salvation, it is not a matter of age as only believers are baptised and baptising a baby has no bearing in the eyes of God whatsoever.

I disagree with this. If it has no bearing on God, then why did God ordered baptism? And why did Christ had Himself baptized? Christ did not need to have Himself baptized because He has no sin, but He did it; therefore, if Christ felt it was important for Him to undergo baptism, then it is good enough for me to follow in His example. He is afterall the Way to the Father.

You totally avoided a major part of my statement.

it is not a matter of age as only believers are baptised

Can you show us an example in the bible that someone is baptised that is not a believer?

Selene, Do you have an answer for this?

[larryt]

I assume you must be referring to baptizing a baby. Below are the scriptures you asked for.

1 Corinthians 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

An entire household was baptized. Can you prove to me that there are no infants or very young children in that household?

1 Corinthians 10:2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

In this scripture above, St. Paul stated that all the Israelites (including Moses) were baptized as they crossed the Red Sea with the Holy Spirit in the form of a cloud over them. Are you going to tell me that there are absolutely no infants among the Israelites who crossed the Red Sea?

In neither case can you prove that babies were baptized. I cannot nor am I required to prove a negative. It is always the burden of proof to prove the positive. What you have done is classic pulling a scripture out of contect to try to prove your point.

In the first instance HOUSEHOLD is a general term just referring to those in the household that believed. And I fully believe that all that heard Paul in that household that could reasonably make some decision to believe did and they were baptised. The context of 1Cor. 1:16 is the error in the boasting of the Corinthians in who they were baptized under. The scriptures are clear, people believe first and then baptized.

Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

Ac 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Ac 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

And here you cannot prove that there were babies involved. It is you burden to prove that there were infants present. Proving a negative is impossible.

Ac 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

And again the second example proves nothing about who to baptize. It is a TYPE of the new life. The word baptize mean only to immerse. Into what something is immersed is indicated by the context. As Moses and Israel are immersed in the cloud and sea so are believers immersed in Christ and the result is

1Co 10:6 ¶ Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

[Jayyycuuup]

Difficulty's lol..... So this is towards your post to me Selene.......

I don't think so, your making your basis off of what Jesus told his disciples. If Christ meant what you are saying then He would have said he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned. But that is not what it says, Christ only say's he who does not believe.....so your adding to what he said. Do you have anything else to add to your claim ?

I do, that states all you have to do is accept Christ and you shall live for eternity with our Lord !

John 5:35 And Jesus said to them "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst."

John 5:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." --By saying that you have to be baptized in order to be saved would be holding your own interpretation above the words of Christ, He states that whoever COMES to Me, shall not be cast out i.e not be saved.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Scripture never said "he who believeth not and is not baptize will be damned." Those words "is not baptized" is not found in the second part of the biblical verse. You are the only one who put it there. Baptism was never excluded because 1) it was God Himself who ordered baptism, 2) Christ Himself felt it was important to have Himself baptize despite that He had no sin, 3) Christ continued to allow His disciples to baptize even after St. John the Baptist was beheaded by King Herod, and 4) Jesus told His Apostles that those who believed and are baptize will be saved. Christ did not have to put in "is not baptize" in the second part of what He said. If God feels that baptism was not necessary, He would not have gone through all the trouble to do all those 4 things I mentioned.

You just made my point. You are trying to say I was adding to scripture, but your highly wrong, my point being is that if Christ meant what you are saying then he would have said those who do not believe and are not baptized will not be saved, but it does not mean that,. nor say that. Concluding that all you have to be is saved in order to go to heaven.

Now you are trying to add to what I said, is baptism necessary ? Absolutely !! Is it a, if you dont you go to hell ? NO !! Your making your basis off of one verse that does not support your claim, I gave and still can give several more verses where Christ, and others say all you have to be is saved to enter the kingdom of God.

I think you misunderstood what I said. Christ never added "and is not baptized" in the second part of his sentence because ALL UNBELEVERS are NOT baptized. None of the unbelivers are baptized, so why should Christ add "and is not baptized" to the unbelivers. The first sentence applies only to the believers. Christ is saying, "Those who believe AND is baptized will be saved." So, those people who heard Christ's words and believed Him, but are NOT baptized......they paid attention and got themselves baptized.

During that time, there were many people who heard Christ's words. Some of those people are believers who are baptized (such as His Apostles), some are believers but NOT baptized (people who followed Him but failed to get baptized) and some are unbelievers (such as the pagan Roman soliders). So, when Christ said to this audience, "Those who believe and is baptized will be saved and those who believeth not will be damned"........the disciples who believed in HIm but didn't get baptized is going to get themselves baptized, while the Roman soldiers will just scoff at Him. Yes, there were a few Romans who heard Him. As you can see in the Bible, there was even a Roman soldier who approached Jesus asking to heal his servant, but he didn't allow Jesus to enter his home. He simply said, "Just say the word, and I know that my servant will be healed."

The Bible says that those who believed AND is baptised will be saved. Now, for those who believed and is NOT baptized, that is up to God to decide what to do with those people. That's His call. As for the unbelievers (who are not baptized at all), the Bible says that they are not saved.

AHA ! Praise you Lord !

Okay, now I can tell you Mathew 16:16 is before Christ was crucified so I think that you are correct, that they needed to be baptized and saved. But that was to the men before Christ was the bearer. You see we are washed in Christ's blood, the men before that we washed in water.... Still I think that we should be baptized, but since Christ bore the sin of the world, that is no longer a mandatory to be saved. (read Mathew 27:38-46, this is when he was crucified)

Hey Selene, Just making sure.....did you read what I posted ??

Hi Jacob,

Sorry, I somehow did miss your post. Jacob, my friend, even after Christ rose from the dead and ascended to Heaven the Apostles continued to baptize with water. It was God who ordered baptism with water and He never took it away. Christ continued to allow His disciples to baptize with water after St. John the Baptist was killed. And God allowed the Apostles to continue to baptize with water even after His Son Jesus ascended to Heaven.

Acts 8:36-38 And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

This does not prove that baptism is mandatory for salvation, so I say again, Baptism is great and should be done, but it's not a if you don't your doomed to hell.

[JeannieC]

I agree...but some people believe that if you do NOT speak in tongues as evidence, then you are not truly saved.

At any rate, I really am not sure what hisdisciple is saying? So just wanted some clarification

Thanks

Really? Wow, I have never heard that. that has really blown my mind. I can't believe someone would say that. The thief on the cross never spoken in tongues and he went to heaven. I've always thought of the work of the Holy Spirit as 2 sepreate works, 1 at salvation one at recieving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. (Which is why Christ blew on the disciples and said recieve the Holy Spirit ( when they got saved ) , and then told them to tarry until they recieve power from on high. ) That Everyone who has been saved has the Holy Spirit within, and everyone who has the Baptism of the holy spirit has the Holy Spirit within and upon both. Which is why the bible talks about having the Holy Spirit upon and within , because there 2 differant things.The differance being both are saved, 1 is empowered for service 1 is not.

I can't imagine how that must make someone feel. Sevenseas I hope nobody ever made you feel like that. God bless

I kid you not. Not to worry...no one ever made me believe or feel that but it's interesting to learn of some of these rather strange

and non-Biblical interpretations.

I agree about the 2 separate events...but, some people disagree with that also...so...LOL...there yah go

As someone who fell for it I just have to comment. Imagine wanting desperately to be saved, repenting, being baptized in Jesus name and then NOT speaking in tongues and being told you aren't really saved. I spent months down front crying and praying every service for the evidence of tongues so I might be saved. I already had low self esteem and could barely believe God loved me and with no evidence of tongues it seemed to prove that God did not love me or want to save me. One Sunday night in desperation, I prayed and cried so hard and got so tongue tied it seemed I spoke in tongues and earned my salvation. Did I really speak in tongues? A few months later in a deep depression I left the church and God for 12 years. Yeah, those teachings happen unfortunately and it does damage to the believer wanting more than anything to be saved.

At this place in my walk, I do believe that baptism is important but not necessary for salvation.