Revelation 20 literal millennium or figurative?

[Bold Believer]

Was the millennium literal? Absolutely. Many of us were born at the tail end of it and saw in our youth some of its glory. Great inventions, great cities; the pinnacle of Christian society, when 'Christ' was not a curse word, when schools had no problem with the Scripture, when laws reflected the righteous teaching of God.

Men went to the moon.

Righteous nations defeated wicked ones on the battlefield.

Sin was kept in check.

Politicians served the people. Presidents didn't copulate in the oval office, and Americans would have demanded such a man relinquish his office in those days.

Kids were well disciplined by mothers who stayed home.

Drugs were in your medicine cabinet, not on the street corner.

Divorce was rare.

The very thought of murdering an unborn child was abhorrent. (People could spell abhorrent, LOL)

Matters of a sexual or private nature were private, not bandied all over the television and media.

Music sounded like music, not like some heathen ritual.

People cursed rarely if at all.

Children were spanked if they became unruly, sometimes even by a neighbor and no one thought it something to be vilified.

Homosexuals stayed under the radar, even the mention of such a thing brought shame on a family should they have anyone so deviant in their ranks.

Christianity was well respected.

Unfortunately, those of us who've seen some of the glory of that time are also seeing the depravity of the mikros chronos or little season of Satan's release.

God is a curse and a joke

Man thinks he is a God

Violence is everywhere

World in turmoil

I'm confused about this logic here. Is this with reference to the united states or the world at large? There were places in the world where mentioning Jesus would get you executed during the periods which you speak.

A little of both Steve.

In the Christian nations of the world at the time (US, UK, Germany, France, Spain) one would have been safe enough. In Russia, perhaps. In Cuba, maybe. In China, perhaps. Islamic nations didn't really bother much with Christians when they had decent rulers. You were safe in many nations in the Middle East as a Christian until the militant nutballs came along; remember we had assets in North Africa during WW2. Lebanon had a large Christian population of her own. Egypt has always had the Copts. Things got bad after the oil embargo of the 70s and then Iran.

The soviets ruthlessly purged Christians, as did the maoist regime in china after that country went to communism. What i'm getting at, though, is I don't know of anything even close to what one would expect even a highly allegorical millennial reign to look like, much less a literal one, in human history to this point. It's just a huge stretch to believe otherwise.

It was obviously normal. God blessed those nations who followed him and cursed those who didn't. Christ ruled from heaven, where Acts 3:21 tells us he must be held until the restoration of all things.

[ENOCH2010]

Was the millennium literal? Absolutely. Many of us were born at the tail end of it and saw in our youth some of its glory. Great inventions, great cities; the pinnacle of Christian society, when 'Christ' was not a curse word, when schools had no problem with the Scripture, when laws reflected the righteous teaching of God.

Men went to the moon.

Righteous nations defeated wicked ones on the battlefield.

Sin was kept in check.

Politicians served the people. Presidents didn't copulate in the oval office, and Americans would have demanded such a man relinquish his office in those days.

Kids were well disciplined by mothers who stayed home.

Drugs were in your medicine cabinet, not on the street corner.

Divorce was rare.

The very thought of murdering an unborn child was abhorrent. (People could spell abhorrent, LOL)

Matters of a sexual or private nature were private, not bandied all over the television and media.

Music sounded like music, not like some heathen ritual.

People cursed rarely if at all.

Children were spanked if they became unruly, sometimes even by a neighbor and no one thought it something to be vilified.

Homosexuals stayed under the radar, even the mention of such a thing brought shame on a family should they have anyone so deviant in their ranks.

Christianity was well respected.

Unfortunately, those of us who've seen some of the glory of that time are also seeing the depravity of the mikros chronos or little season of Satan's release.

God is a curse and a joke

Man thinks he is a God

Violence is everywhere

World in turmoil

BB Who or what was the 2 Witnesses of Rev. 11 vs 3 according to the preterist

[Bold Believer]

Was the millennium literal? Absolutely. Many of us were born at the tail end of it and saw in our youth some of its glory. Great inventions, great cities; the pinnacle of Christian society, when 'Christ' was not a curse word, when schools had no problem with the Scripture, when laws reflected the righteous teaching of God.

Men went to the moon.

Righteous nations defeated wicked ones on the battlefield.

Sin was kept in check.

Politicians served the people. Presidents didn't copulate in the oval office, and Americans would have demanded such a man relinquish his office in those days.

Kids were well disciplined by mothers who stayed home.

Drugs were in your medicine cabinet, not on the street corner.

Divorce was rare.

The very thought of murdering an unborn child was abhorrent. (People could spell abhorrent, LOL)

Matters of a sexual or private nature were private, not bandied all over the television and media.

Music sounded like music, not like some heathen ritual.

People cursed rarely if at all.

Children were spanked if they became unruly, sometimes even by a neighbor and no one thought it something to be vilified.

Homosexuals stayed under the radar, even the mention of such a thing brought shame on a family should they have anyone so deviant in their ranks.

Christianity was well respected.

Unfortunately, those of us who've seen some of the glory of that time are also seeing the depravity of the mikros chronos or little season of Satan's release.

God is a curse and a joke

Man thinks he is a God

Violence is everywhere

World in turmoil

BB Who or what was the 2 Witnesses of Rev. 11 vs 3 according to the preterist

I understand them as the Law and the Prophets as Christ taught them.

[Bold Believer]

Was the millennium literal? Absolutely. Many of us were born at the tail end of it and saw in our youth some of its glory. Great inventions, great cities; the pinnacle of Christian society, when 'Christ' was not a curse word, when schools had no problem with the Scripture, when laws reflected the righteous teaching of God.

Men went to the moon.

Righteous nations defeated wicked ones on the battlefield.

Sin was kept in check.

Politicians served the people. Presidents didn't copulate in the oval office, and Americans would have demanded such a man relinquish his office in those days.

Kids were well disciplined by mothers who stayed home.

Drugs were in your medicine cabinet, not on the street corner.

Divorce was rare.

The very thought of murdering an unborn child was abhorrent. (People could spell abhorrent, LOL)

Matters of a sexual or private nature were private, not bandied all over the television and media.

Music sounded like music, not like some heathen ritual.

People cursed rarely if at all.

Children were spanked if they became unruly, sometimes even by a neighbor and no one thought it something to be vilified.

Homosexuals stayed under the radar, even the mention of such a thing brought shame on a family should they have anyone so deviant in their ranks.

Christianity was well respected.

Unfortunately, those of us who've seen some of the glory of that time are also seeing the depravity of the mikros chronos or little season of Satan's release.

God is a curse and a joke

Man thinks he is a God

Violence is everywhere

World in turmoil

BB Who or what was the 2 Witnesses of Rev. 11 vs 3 according to the preterist

I understand them as the Law and the Prophets as Christ taught them.

Revelation 11

³ And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” ⁴ They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. ⁶ They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

⁷ Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. ⁸ Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. ⁹ For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. ¹⁰ The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

¹¹ But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. ¹²Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

¹³ At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

They are real people ... not an allegory.. a real event that will happen

Not necessarily. The Law and the Prophets were embodied in Jesus, I think we'd agree on that. He gave the true undestanding of the Law and the Prophets in all of his teaching. That teaching was passed on to the Church through the apostles. The proper teaching of the Law and the Prophets antagonized those who 'live upon the Land', the Jews of the time. They despised the teaching of the Apostles and the Early Church to the point that they assisted Rome in their persecution (see Ch 13, the second Beast). The 2 witnesses are overcome by the Beast from the Pit (Nero), so this has to do with the martyrs of the Neronian persecution. The Law and Prophets are embodied in them through their teaching and beliefs. The persecution of the Church under Nero was 1260 days (three and a half years), yet this prophecy speaks of three and a half days. Who else was in the grave for three and a half days? Jesus. John is insinuating that these martyrs are like Christ in their death. It's also a Jewish tradition/belief that the soul remains with the body for 3.5 days before departing to judgment, if I recall.

So then, they ARE real people (the martyrs) and this DID happen.

About that portion of leaving them in the street and not permitting them to be buried, it's historical that Christian martyrs were often crucified and their bodies left hanging for days on the crosses, some even until they decomposed.

[ENOCH2010]

Was the millennium literal? Absolutely. Many of us were born at the tail end of it and saw in our youth some of its glory. Great inventions, great cities; the pinnacle of Christian society, when 'Christ' was not a curse word, when schools had no problem with the Scripture, when laws reflected the righteous teaching of God.

Men went to the moon.

Righteous nations defeated wicked ones on the battlefield.

Sin was kept in check.

Politicians served the people. Presidents didn't copulate in the oval office, and Americans would have demanded such a man relinquish his office in those days.

Kids were well disciplined by mothers who stayed home.

Drugs were in your medicine cabinet, not on the street corner.

Divorce was rare.

The very thought of murdering an unborn child was abhorrent. (People could spell abhorrent, LOL)

Matters of a sexual or private nature were private, not bandied all over the television and media.

Music sounded like music, not like some heathen ritual.

People cursed rarely if at all.

Children were spanked if they became unruly, sometimes even by a neighbor and no one thought it something to be vilified.

Homosexuals stayed under the radar, even the mention of such a thing brought shame on a family should they have anyone so deviant in their ranks.

Christianity was well respected.

Unfortunately, those of us who've seen some of the glory of that time are also seeing the depravity of the mikros chronos or little season of Satan's release.

God is a curse and a joke

Man thinks he is a God

Violence is everywhere

World in turmoil

BB Who or what was the 2 Witnesses of Rev. 11 vs 3 according to the preterist

I understand them as the Law and the Prophets as Christ taught them.

Revelation 11

³ And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” ⁴ They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. ⁶ They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

⁷ Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. ⁸ Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. ⁹ For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. ¹⁰ The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

¹¹ But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. ¹²Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

¹³ At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

They are real people ... not an allegory.. a real event that will happen

Not necessarily. The Law and the Prophets were embodied in Jesus, I think we'd agree on that. He gave the true undestanding of the Law and the Prophets in all of his teaching. That teaching was passed on to the Church through the apostles. The proper teaching of the Law and the Prophets antagonized those who 'live upon the Land', the Jews of the time. They despised the teaching of the Apostles and the Early Church to the point that they assisted Rome in their persecution (see Ch 13, the second Beast). The 2 witnesses are overcome by the Beast from the Pit (Nero), so this has to do with the martyrs of the Neronian persecution. The Law and Prophets are embodied in them through their teaching and beliefs. The persecution of the Church under Nero was 1260 days (three and a half years), yet this prophecy speaks of three and a half days. Who else was in the grave for three and a half days? Jesus. John is insinuating that these martyrs are like Christ in their death. It's also a Jewish tradition/belief that the soul remains with the body for 3.5 days before departing to judgment, if I recall.

So then, they ARE real people (the martyrs) and this DID happen.

About that portion of leaving them in the street and not permitting them to be buried, it's historical that Christian martyrs were often crucified and their bodies left hanging for days on the crosses, some even until they decomposed.

BB you've got a little explaining to do

1/ Where is it written that the ones wanting to harm the disciples were killed in the manner of the harm they wished?

2/ I haven't read where the disciples turned water to blood or plague the Earth,would you explain?

3/ Were all the disciples martyred in Jerusalem?

[Bold Believer]

ENOCH2010 wrote:

BB you've got a little explaining to do

1/ Where is it written that the ones wanting to harm the disciples were killed in the manner of the harm they wished?

2/ I haven't read where the disciples turned water to blood or plague the Earth,would you explain?

3/ Were all the disciples martyred in Jerusalem?

Fair question ENOCH.

1. I would direct you to Jeremiah 5:14 where Jeremiah is told that because he preaches the Word the people would be like fire in his mouth and those who oppose him like stubble. The Neronian martyrs faithfully preached the Word and their preaching will serve as fire on the Last Day to burn up those who opposed them.

2. They literally didn't, but the effects of their preaching brought disaster on their opposers. This is an allusion, meant to equate the martyrs' authority with that of the prophets because of their faithfulness.

3. Obviously not, however the orders to kill them came out of Jerusalem, in the sense that the seat of the 2d beast (the Jewish leadership which opposed Jesus) was in Jerusalem. (We often refer today to our leadership as 'Washington' because that is where it is based, and the idea of Jerusalem here is roughly the same.) The literal city was defiled by these evil apostate leaders and those who followed their desires. Later in Revelation, we find this 2d beast is aligned with Rome and doing Nero's bidding (and Nero is in turn doing the dragon's bidding through the authority of Rome).

[Steve_S]

ENOCH2010 wrote:

BB you've got a little explaining to do

1/ Where is it written that the ones wanting to harm the disciples were killed in the manner of the harm they wished?

2/ I haven't read where the disciples turned water to blood or plague the Earth,would you explain?

3/ Were all the disciples martyred in Jerusalem?

Fair question ENOCH.

1. I would direct you to Jeremiah 5:14 where Jeremiah is told that because he preaches the Word the people would be like fire in his mouth and those who oppose him like stubble. The Neronian martyrs faithfully preached the Word and their preaching will serve as fire on the Last Day to burn up those who opposed them.

2. They literally didn't, but the effects of their preaching brought disaster on their opposers. This is an allusion, meant to equate the martyrs' authority with that of the prophets because of their faithfulness.

3. Obviously not, however the orders to kill them came out of Jerusalem, in the sense that the seat of the 2d beast (the Jewish leadership which opposed Jesus) was in Jerusalem. (We often refer today to our leadership as 'Washington' because that is where it is based, and the idea of Jerusalem here is roughly the same.) The literal city was defiled by these evil apostate leaders and those who followed their desires. Later in Revelation, we find this 2d beast is aligned with Rome and doing Nero's bidding (and Nero is in turn doing the dragon's bidding through the authority of Rome).

Number 3 is wrong. Some of them died in rome (most likely both peter and paul were martyred during Nero's reign, along with thousands of others). Jerusalem did not give orders to rome, it's that simple. This is simply a gigantic stretch that has absolutely no historical base.

[Bold Believer]

ENOCH2010 wrote:

BB you've got a little explaining to do

1/ Where is it written that the ones wanting to harm the disciples were killed in the manner of the harm they wished?

2/ I haven't read where the disciples turned water to blood or plague the Earth,would you explain?

3/ Were all the disciples martyred in Jerusalem?

Fair question ENOCH.

1. I would direct you to Jeremiah 5:14 where Jeremiah is told that because he preaches the Word the people would be like fire in his mouth and those who oppose him like stubble. The Neronian martyrs faithfully preached the Word and their preaching will serve as fire on the Last Day to burn up those who opposed them.

2. They literally didn't, but the effects of their preaching brought disaster on their opposers. This is an allusion, meant to equate the martyrs' authority with that of the prophets because of their faithfulness.

3. Obviously not, however the orders to kill them came out of Jerusalem, in the sense that the seat of the 2d beast (the Jewish leadership which opposed Jesus) was in Jerusalem. (We often refer today to our leadership as 'Washington' because that is where it is based, and the idea of Jerusalem here is roughly the same.) The literal city was defiled by these evil apostate leaders and those who followed their desires. Later in Revelation, we find this 2d beast is aligned with Rome and doing Nero's bidding (and Nero is in turn doing the dragon's bidding through the authority of Rome).

Number 3 is wrong. Some of them died in rome (most likely both peter and paul were martyred during Nero's reign, along with thousands of others). Jerusalem did not give orders to rome, it's that simple. This is simply a gigantic stretch that has absolutely no historical base.

That's right. Jerusalem TOOK orders from Rome (Nero). Luke tells us that initially, Paul was a part of this persecution. The Jewish leadership was in bed with Rome. Acts 9 specifically states that Saul (Paul's former name) ... "still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem."

Why bring them to Jerusalem? Why not take those people directly to the Roman authorities? Because the whore was riding the Beast. Apostate Judaism was complicit with Rome in the persecution of the early Church. Yes, Believers were martyred in Rome and everywhere in the Empire, and the apostate Jews cheered Rome on.

[Steve_S]

ENOCH2010 wrote:

BB you've got a little explaining to do

1/ Where is it written that the ones wanting to harm the disciples were killed in the manner of the harm they wished?

2/ I haven't read where the disciples turned water to blood or plague the Earth,would you explain?

3/ Were all the disciples martyred in Jerusalem?

Fair question ENOCH.

1. I would direct you to Jeremiah 5:14 where Jeremiah is told that because he preaches the Word the people would be like fire in his mouth and those who oppose him like stubble. The Neronian martyrs faithfully preached the Word and their preaching will serve as fire on the Last Day to burn up those who opposed them.

2. They literally didn't, but the effects of their preaching brought disaster on their opposers. This is an allusion, meant to equate the martyrs' authority with that of the prophets because of their faithfulness.

3. Obviously not, however the orders to kill them came out of Jerusalem, in the sense that the seat of the 2d beast (the Jewish leadership which opposed Jesus) was in Jerusalem. (We often refer today to our leadership as 'Washington' because that is where it is based, and the idea of Jerusalem here is roughly the same.) The literal city was defiled by these evil apostate leaders and those who followed their desires. Later in Revelation, we find this 2d beast is aligned with Rome and doing Nero's bidding (and Nero is in turn doing the dragon's bidding through the authority of Rome).

Number 3 is wrong. Some of them died in rome (most likely both peter and paul were martyred during Nero's reign, along with thousands of others). Jerusalem did not give orders to rome, it's that simple. This is simply a gigantic stretch that has absolutely no historical base.

That's right. Jerusalem TOOK orders from Rome (Nero). Luke tells us that initially, Paul was a part of this persecution. The Jewish leadership was in bed with Rome. Acts 9 specifically states that Saul (Paul's former name) ... "still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem."

Why bring them to Jerusalem? Why not take those people directly to the Roman authorities? Because the whore was riding the Beast. Apostate Judaism was complicit with Rome in the persecution of the early Church. Yes, Believers were martyred in Rome and everywhere in the Empire, and the apostate Jews cheered Rome on.

This isn't what you stated in your prior post though. You stated the reverse, roman complicity with orders from jerusalem. Many Christians were martyred by rome without any knowledge of the apostate leadership in Jerusalem.

Anyway, your current contention is still even a stretch as the Romans held the jews in very little regard. As a matter of fact, Paul got a death sentence by the Jews overturned by a direct appeal to Caesar (though he was later likely martyred by the Romans).

The jews and romans were never in lockstep about what to do with the Christians and both had separate reasons for their persecution of them. The jewish reason is obvious and I won't recount it here. The Romans persecuted christians for monotheism (just as they did the jews) and later because nero blamed them for burning down half of rome (which he likely had done himself in order to have adequate space to build a new palace). The pure fact of the matter is that Christians were largely sacrificial scapegoats for roman leadership while they were wrongfully considered blasphemous and abominatory by the jewish leadership.

[Bold Believer]

ENOCH2010 wrote:

BB you've got a little explaining to do

1/ Where is it written that the ones wanting to harm the disciples were killed in the manner of the harm they wished?

2/ I haven't read where the disciples turned water to blood or plague the Earth,would you explain?

3/ Were all the disciples martyred in Jerusalem?

Fair question ENOCH.

1. I would direct you to Jeremiah 5:14 where Jeremiah is told that because he preaches the Word the people would be like fire in his mouth and those who oppose him like stubble. The Neronian martyrs faithfully preached the Word and their preaching will serve as fire on the Last Day to burn up those who opposed them.

2. They literally didn't, but the effects of their preaching brought disaster on their opposers. This is an allusion, meant to equate the martyrs' authority with that of the prophets because of their faithfulness.

3. Obviously not, however the orders to kill them came out of Jerusalem, in the sense that the seat of the 2d beast (the Jewish leadership which opposed Jesus) was in Jerusalem. (We often refer today to our leadership as 'Washington' because that is where it is based, and the idea of Jerusalem here is roughly the same.) The literal city was defiled by these evil apostate leaders and those who followed their desires. Later in Revelation, we find this 2d beast is aligned with Rome and doing Nero's bidding (and Nero is in turn doing the dragon's bidding through the authority of Rome).

Number 3 is wrong. Some of them died in rome (most likely both peter and paul were martyred during Nero's reign, along with thousands of others). Jerusalem did not give orders to rome, it's that simple. This is simply a gigantic stretch that has absolutely no historical base.

That's right. Jerusalem TOOK orders from Rome (Nero). Luke tells us that initially, Paul was a part of this persecution. The Jewish leadership was in bed with Rome. Acts 9 specifically states that Saul (Paul's former name) ... "still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem."

Why bring them to Jerusalem? Why not take those people directly to the Roman authorities? Because the whore was riding the Beast. Apostate Judaism was complicit with Rome in the persecution of the early Church. Yes, Believers were martyred in Rome and everywhere in the Empire, and the apostate Jews cheered Rome on.

This isn't what you stated in your prior post though. You stated the reverse, roman complicity with orders from jerusalem. Many Christians were martyred by rome without any knowledge of the apostate leadership in Jerusalem.

Anyway, your current contention is still even a stretch as the Romans held the jews in very little regard. As a matter of fact, Paul got a death sentence by the Jews overturned by a direct appeal to Caesar (though he was later likely martyred by the Romans).

The jews and romans were never in lockstep about what to do with the Christians and both had separate reasons for their persecution of them. The jewish reason is obvious and I won't recount it here. The Romans persecuted christians for monotheism (just as they did the jews) and later because nero blamed them for burning down half of rome (which he likely had done himself in order to have adequate space to build a new palace). The pure fact of the matter is that Christians were largely sacrificial scapegoats for roman leadership while they were wrongfully considered blasphemous and abominatory by the jewish leadership.

The Romans didn't like monotheists, this is true, but Nero's administration played the Jews against the Believers. Notice that in Rev 17, the Scripture states that the Whore's lover later turned against her and burned her flesh with fire (fire being what destroyed the city of Jerusalem.) The apostate Jews co-operated with the Romans to get rid of the upstart Church as a dangerous sect, and quite frankly, get an 'in' with the Romans. That worked for them until 66AD when the rebellion started. It lasted 1260 days, just as John said it would in Revelation.