De-Evolution of Culture

[OneLight]

My I suggest considering John 4:17-19

The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.”

Jesus said to her, “You have well said, ‘I have no husband,’ for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly.”

The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.

Seems to me that just being with someone does not mean one is married.

[gdemoss]

So it is your position that without everything you showed in the example that one is not married in the eyes of God?

Gary

Lol. It is my position that it takes more than just sex to be married in the eyes of God based on those verses. In other words the verses surrounding the verse you mentioned Gen 24:67 negate the premise that sexual consumation is the only thing one must accomplish to be married. Would you agree?

Perhaps we're saying the same thing? Lol.

Since you base your position upon those verses according to your claim above, then can you declare exactly what, from those verses, made the marriage? Were all things that you posted in your previous example that you drew from the passage 'absolutely necessary' to be considered married in Gods eyes?

• 
  
  • From this story we can tell there was Abraham’s instruction to his trusted servant. (1-4)
    
  • 
    
  • 
    
  • Abraham’s servant sought God’s favor and direction. (vs. 14)
    
  • 
    
  • 
    
  • We can also tell that Rebekah’s parents blessed the marriage as witnesses before God. (vs. 50 and 51)
    
  • 
    
  • 
    
  • We can also tell her family asked Rebekah if she would go with Abraham’s servant. (vs. 58)
    
  • 
    
  • 
    
  • The result was Isaac and Rebekah were married as Rebekah became Isaac’s wife. (66-67)
    

Please declare which of the above was necessary for God to recognize Isaac and Rebekah's marriage as a marriage. And if there was anything else necessary than what was presented in the story, please declare that I may understand.

Gary

[gdemoss]

My I suggest considering John 4:17-19

The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.”

Jesus said to her, “You have well said, ‘I have no husband,’ for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly.”

The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.

Seems to me that just being with someone does not mean one is married.

Good call Alan. Meditating upon the verse gives understanding that one cannot conclude exactly what her relationship to the sixth man spoken of consisted of. It doesn't speak of her living arrangements nor any sexual relationship at all but simply says that she 'has' one who is not her husband. It is entirely plausible that Jesus was showing her the extent of his ability to know things by addressing the fact that her current arrangement had not become marriage through the act of consummation yet, but doesn't specifically address it that way and cannot be said to dogmatically as far as I can see.

Gary

[GoldenEagle]

Since you base your position upon those verses according to your claim above, then can you declare exactly what, from those verses, made the marriage? Were all things that you posted in your previous example that you drew from the passage 'absolutely necessary' to be considered married in Gods eyes?

Please declare which of the above was necessary for God to recognize Isaac and Rebekah's marriage as a marriage. And if there was anything else necessary than what was presented in the story, please declare that I may understand.

Gary

So I’m going back to the original post that started this whole debate on marriage. I’m going to do so in an attempt to communicate better what I believe God’s Word says on the subject of marriage in Genesis 24 and other Biblical passages.

But let us consider Isaac for a moment.

Gen 24:67 And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's [death].

There was no sin here. Consider closely how the marriage of Isaac and Rebekah was defined in the verse. Rebekah was simply a woman who Abrahams servant went and retrieved who willingly chose to come and be Isaac's wife and there is no indication of a wedding ceremony or papers signed down at the courthouse. Isaac took Rebekah....today's modern traditions of men and laws governing every aspect of life does not reflect the truth of what it means to be married. Marriage is a covenant relationship between a man and a woman that is consummated via the man taking his wife, to use Gods choice of words.

I say this open up the question of 'when' does a marriage really begin in Gods eyes? And how does that affect the topic at hand?

We need to try not to get sucked into allowing man to define that which God has already defined in his word.

Gary

I agree marriage is a covenant relationship between a man and a woman and ultimately it is consumed via the two becoming one flesh. However, I’m going to address a few other things in this post.

So what you were saying with this verse is there was no need for a wedding ceremony or papers signed in a courthouse. Is that correct? In any case that is how I interpreted it. What I was saying was that in context that verse doesn’t support the idea you proposed.

So the two questions I perceived from this were: A. What does it mean to be married? B. Is there a need for a wedding ceremony? C. Is there a need for paperwork to be brought before government? D. When does a marriage begin in God’s eyes?

A. What does it mean to be married? D. When does a marriage begin in God’s eyes?

This particular passage I’m sure you would agree deals with arranged marriages - something generally not practiced today at least in the West. But we can learn a few things from this passage regarding arranged marriages and even to a lesser extent principles for marriage in general.

Sarah was 90 when Isaac was born and Abraham was 100. (Gen. 17:15-21)(Gen. 21:1-3)

From Gen. 23:1 we know Sarah died at the age of one hundred twenty-seven years. This would’ve meant that Isaac was approximately 36 or 37 when she died. Abraham lived 175 years. So 36 or 37 (Isaac’s age) would’ve been a youth. Considering his father’s age it was time for Isaac to settle down to begin his own family. From Gen. 24:67 we know that Isaac was mourning the loss of the love and the death of his mother.

Abraham, the father of the groom, gave instructions regarding where to find a bride for Isaac. (Gen. 24: 1-4) We can tell from verse 1 that Abraham was getting old and wanted to see that his son was looked after once he was gone. Abraham’s wife was already gone. (Gen. 23:1) Also, sending the servant meant that Abraham’s servant was trusted by Abraham and was serving as the pseudo father of the groom in this instance.

Abraham’s servant sought God’s favor and direction. (vs. 14) So God was directly involved in leading the servant representing Abraham to find Rebekah for Isaac.

Rebekah’s parents acknowledged God working in the bringing of Abraham’s servant to meet Rebekah. (Vs. 50 and 51) So we can tell from this that it is advisable for family and authorities to bless the marriage of two people.

B. Is there a need for a wedding ceremony?

In verse 53 the Servant made a show of showering blessings upon Rebekah. The servant “brought out jewelry of silver, jewelry of gold, and clothing, and gave them to Rebekah. He also gave precious things to her brother and to her mother.” So there was indeed jewelry given to the bride as a sign of favor and commitment. So perhaps this idea of exchanging rings isn’t so foreign or just man’s tradition after all? It is in the Bible right… So, it must be applicable today.

In verse 54 we see there was a big celebration with eating and drinking. Eating a meal together back then, just as it is today, is a sign of friendship and fellowship.

The question was asked and answered if Rebekah would go with the servant and by implication become Isaac’s wife. (Vs. 58) In effect just as the servant was representing Abraham the servant was also representing Isaac. Therefore we can tell that there are to be witnesses and consent between both parties before the Lord.

The end result was Isaac and Rebekah were married as Rebekah became Isaac’s wife. (66-67)

The conclusion is this passage points to a series of events that led up to the marriage between Isaac and Rebekah: Man’s initiation, God’s blessing and direction, witnesses, celebration, giving of precious jewelry, fellowship as a new family, request and consent of parties involved, and finally consummation physically of marriage. The point being that the physical consummation of the marriage is the last part. It’s the end result but not the only thing that makes a marriage binding before God.

C. Is there a need for paperwork to be brought before government?

Perhaps we should look to the NT for this in 1 Peter 2:13-17 where we’re told to submit to the ordinances of man for the Lord’s sake. The argument becomes then if the state only determines a couple to be married with a piece of paper from a courthouse then we as Christians should follow this ordinance don’t you think? Plus it just takes what 15-20 minutes in most courthouses right?

1 Pet. 2:13-17

¹³ Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, ¹⁴ or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. ¹⁵ For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men— ¹⁶ as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. ¹⁷ Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

Jesus was a fan of marriage celebrations (John 2:1-2) and this is where He began his ministry in Galilee with the turning water to wine. (John 2:3-11)

John 2:1-2

¹ On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. ² Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.

Further, we should look at what living together in a relationship including a sexual nature really means. I would argue that it is fornication. Fornication is wrong period but especially wrong for Christians who are the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor. 6:18-20

¹⁸ Flee fornication. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits fornication sins against his own body. ¹⁹ Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? ²⁰ For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

From Dicitionary.com

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fornication?s=ts

Fornication Noun

1. voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other.

World English Dictionary - Collins

1. voluntary sexual intercourse outside marriage

2. law voluntary sexual intercourse between two persons of the opposite sex, where one is or both are unmarried

3. Bible sexual immorality in general, especially adultery

Feel free to agree or disagree. Your thoughts?

[GoldenEagle]

My I suggest considering John 4:17-19

The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.”

Jesus said to her, “You have well said, ‘I have no husband,’ for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly.”

The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.

Seems to me that just being with someone does not mean one is married.

Good call Alan. Meditating upon the verse gives understanding that one cannot conclude exactly what her relationship to the sixth man spoken of consisted of. It doesn't speak of her living arrangements nor any sexual relationship at all but simply says that she 'has' one who is not her husband. It is entirely plausible that Jesus was showing her the extent of his ability to know things by addressing the fact that her current arrangement had not become marriage through the act of consummation yet, but doesn't specifically address it that way and cannot be said to dogmatically as far as I can see.

Gary

Sorry going to agree with OneLight on this one Gary. Jesus was speaking of the womans husbands - clearly a sexual relationship. What does the the translation "you now have is not your husband" tell us?

[gdemoss]

Since you base your position upon those verses according to your claim above, then can you declare exactly what, from those verses, made the marriage? Were all things that you posted in your previous example that you drew from the passage 'absolutely necessary' to be considered married in Gods eyes?

Please declare which of the above was necessary for God to recognize Isaac and Rebekah's marriage as a marriage. And if there was anything else necessary than what was presented in the story, please declare that I may understand.

Gary

So I’m going back to the original post that started this whole debate on marriage. I’m going to do so in an attempt to communicate better what I believe God’s Word says on the subject of marriage in Genesis 24 and other Biblical passages.

But let us consider Isaac for a moment.

Gen 24:67 And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's [death].

There was no sin here. Consider closely how the marriage of Isaac and Rebekah was defined in the verse. Rebekah was simply a woman who Abrahams servant went and retrieved who willingly chose to come and be Isaac's wife and there is no indication of a wedding ceremony or papers signed down at the courthouse. Isaac took Rebekah....today's modern traditions of men and laws governing every aspect of life does not reflect the truth of what it means to be married. Marriage is a covenant relationship between a man and a woman that is consummated via the man taking his wife, to use Gods choice of words.

I say this open up the question of 'when' does a marriage really begin in Gods eyes? And how does that affect the topic at hand?

We need to try not to get sucked into allowing man to define that which God has already defined in his word.

Gary

I agree marriage is a covenant relationship between a man and a woman and ultimately it is consumed via the two becoming one flesh. However, I’m going to address a few other things in this post.

So what you were saying with this verse is there was no need for a wedding ceremony or papers signed in a courthouse. Is that correct? In any case that is how I interpreted it. What I was saying was that in context that verse doesn’t support the idea you proposed.

So the two questions I perceived from this were: A. What does it mean to be married? B. Is there a need for a wedding ceremony? C. Is there a need for paperwork to be brought before government? D. When does a marriage begin in God’s eyes?

A. What does it mean to be married? D. When does a marriage begin in God’s eyes?

This particular passage I’m sure you would agree deals with arranged marriages - something generally not practiced today at least in the West. But we can learn a few things from this passage regarding arranged marriages and even to a lesser extent principles for marriage in general.

Sarah was 90 when Isaac was born and Abraham was 100. (Gen. 17:15-21)(Gen. 21:1-3)

From Gen. 23:1 we know Sarah died at the age of one hundred twenty-seven years. This would’ve meant that Isaac was approximately 36 or 37 when she died. Abraham lived 175 years. So 36 or 37 (Isaac’s age) would’ve been a youth. Considering his father’s age it was time for Isaac to settle down to begin his own family. From Gen. 24:67 we know that Isaac was mourning the loss of the love and the death of his mother.

Abraham, the father of the groom, gave instructions regarding where to find a bride for Isaac. (Gen. 24: 1-4) We can tell from verse 1 that Abraham was getting old and wanted to see that his son was looked after once he was gone. Abraham’s wife was already gone. (Gen. 23:1) Also, sending the servant meant that Abraham’s servant was trusted by Abraham and was serving as the pseudo father of the groom in this instance.

Abraham’s servant sought God’s favor and direction. (vs. 14) So God was directly involved in leading the servant representing Abraham to find Rebekah for Isaac.

Rebekah’s parents acknowledged God working in the bringing of Abraham’s servant to meet Rebekah. (Vs. 50 and 51) So we can tell from this that it is advisable for family and authorities to bless the marriage of two people.

B. Is there a need for a wedding ceremony?

In verse 53 the Servant made a show of showering blessings upon Rebekah. The servant “brought out jewelry of silver, jewelry of gold, and clothing, and gave them to Rebekah. He also gave precious things to her brother and to her mother.” So there was indeed jewelry given to the bride as a sign of favor and commitment. So perhaps this idea of exchanging rings isn’t so foreign or just man’s tradition after all? It is in the Bible right… So, it must be applicable today.

In verse 54 we see there was a big celebration with eating and drinking. Eating a meal together back then, just as it is today, is a sign of friendship and fellowship.

The question was asked and answered if Rebekah would go with the servant and by implication become Isaac’s wife. (Vs. 58) In effect just as the servant was representing Abraham the servant was also representing Isaac. Therefore we can tell that there are to be witnesses and consent between both parties before the Lord.

The end result was Isaac and Rebekah were married as Rebekah became Isaac’s wife. (66-67)

The conclusion is this passage points to a series of events that led up to the marriage between Isaac and Rebekah: Man’s initiation, God’s blessing and direction, witnesses, celebration, giving of precious jewelry, fellowship as a new family, request and consent of parties involved, and finally consummation physically of marriage. The point being that the physical consummation of the marriage is the last part. It’s the end result but not the only thing that makes a marriage binding before God.

C. Is there a need for paperwork to be brought before government?

Perhaps we should look to the NT for this in 1 Peter 2:13-17 where we’re told to submit to the ordinances of man for the Lord’s sake. The argument becomes then if the state only determines a couple to be married with a piece of paper from a courthouse then we as Christians should follow this ordinance don’t you think? Plus it just takes what 15-20 minutes in most courthouses right?

1 Pet. 2:13-17

¹³ Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, ¹⁴ or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. ¹⁵ For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men— ¹⁶ as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. ¹⁷ Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

Jesus was a fan of marriage celebrations (John 2:1-2) and this is where He began his ministry in Galilee with the turning water to wine. (John 2:3-11)

John 2:1-2

¹ On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. ² Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.

Further, we should look at what living together in a relationship including a sexual nature really means. I would argue that it is fornication. Fornication is wrong period but especially wrong for Christians who are the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor. 6:18-20

¹⁸ Flee fornication. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits fornication sins against his own body. ¹⁹ Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? ²⁰ For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

From Dicitionary.com

http://dictionary.re...ornication?s=ts

Fornication Noun

1. voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other.

World English Dictionary - Collins

1. voluntary sexual intercourse outside marriage

2. law voluntary sexual intercourse between two persons of the opposite sex, where one is or both are unmarried

3. Bible sexual immorality in general, especially adultery

Feel free to agree or disagree. Your thoughts?

Jon, nice side step, now how about simply answering my question without all the extra stuff that doesn't prove or say anything.

• From this story we can tell there was Abraham’s instruction to his trusted servant.
  
• (1-4)Abraham’s servant sought God’s favor and direction.
  
• (vs. 14)We can also tell that Rebekah’s parents blessed the marriage as witnesses before God.
  
• (vs. 50 and 51)We can also tell her family asked Rebekah if she would go with Abraham’s servant.
  
• (vs. 58)The result was Isaac and Rebekah were married as Rebekah became Isaac’s wife. (66-67)
  

Please declare which of the above was necessary for God to recognize Isaac and Rebekah's marriage as a marriage. And if there was anything else necessary than what was presented in the story, please declare that I may understand.

It is very simple, you don't have to complicate the matter. If Isaac himself would have went and found his own wife would the marriage be null and void in Gods eyes? If not then, no it isn't necessary. If her parents had not given their blessing, was it not then a marriage in Gods eyes? If not then, no it isn't necessary. You might see where this is going but maybe not. Also, are you declaring then that this only applies if one is having an arranged marriage by ones parents? Jon, your lengthy explanation didn't really explain anything. Please, try again, I am a difficult student to teach.

Gary

[GoldenEagle]

This wasn't a side step. I spent about 1 to 1.5 hours this time alone studying the entire passage, praying, and thinking about what to say. Frankly, I believe I thoroughly discussed the passage. This was my third attempt to help you see that the passage in context doesn't say that all one has to do is agree before God, husband & wife agree with each other, and have sexual relations to be married. Sorry.

So I'll turn the question back to you. What do you disagree with in my post? Please support your opinion with the passage in question (Gen. 24) or other Biblical backing so I can understand what you're trying to get at.

[GoldenEagle]

Since you base your position upon those verses according to your claim above, then can you declare exactly what, from those verses, made the marriage? Were all things that you posted in your previous example that you drew from the passage 'absolutely necessary' to be considered married in Gods eyes?

Please declare which of the above was necessary for God to recognize Isaac and Rebekah's marriage as a marriage. And if there was anything else necessary than what was presented in the story, please declare that I may understand.

Gary

So I’m going back to the original post that started this whole debate on marriage. I’m going to do so in an attempt to communicate better what I believe God’s Word says on the subject of marriage in Genesis 24 and other Biblical passages.

But let us consider Isaac for a moment.

Gen 24:67 And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's [death].

There was no sin here. Consider closely how the marriage of Isaac and Rebekah was defined in the verse. Rebekah was simply a woman who Abrahams servant went and retrieved who willingly chose to come and be Isaac's wife and there is no indication of a wedding ceremony or papers signed down at the courthouse. Isaac took Rebekah....today's modern traditions of men and laws governing every aspect of life does not reflect the truth of what it means to be married. Marriage is a covenant relationship between a man and a woman that is consummated via the man taking his wife, to use Gods choice of words.

I say this open up the question of 'when' does a marriage really begin in Gods eyes? And how does that affect the topic at hand?

We need to try not to get sucked into allowing man to define that which God has already defined in his word.

Gary

I agree marriage is a covenant relationship between a man and a woman and ultimately it is consumed via the two becoming one flesh. However, I’m going to address a few other things in this post.

So what you were saying with this verse is there was no need for a wedding ceremony or papers signed in a courthouse. Is that correct? In any case that is how I interpreted it. What I was saying was that in context that verse doesn’t support the idea you proposed.

So the two questions I perceived from this were: A. What does it mean to be married? B. Is there a need for a wedding ceremony? C. Is there a need for paperwork to be brought before government? D. When does a marriage begin in God’s eyes?

A. What does it mean to be married? D. When does a marriage begin in God’s eyes?

This particular passage I’m sure you would agree deals with arranged marriages - something generally not practiced today at least in the West. But we can learn a few things from this passage regarding arranged marriages and even to a lesser extent principles for marriage in general.

Sarah was 90 when Isaac was born and Abraham was 100. (Gen. 17:15-21)(Gen. 21:1-3)

From Gen. 23:1 we know Sarah died at the age of one hundred twenty-seven years. This would’ve meant that Isaac was approximately 36 or 37 when she died. Abraham lived 175 years. So 36 or 37 (Isaac’s age) would’ve been a youth. Considering his father’s age it was time for Isaac to settle down to begin his own family. From Gen. 24:67 we know that Isaac was mourning the loss of the love and the death of his mother.

Abraham, the father of the groom, gave instructions regarding where to find a bride for Isaac. (Gen. 24: 1-4) We can tell from verse 1 that Abraham was getting old and wanted to see that his son was looked after once he was gone. Abraham’s wife was already gone. (Gen. 23:1) Also, sending the servant meant that Abraham’s servant was trusted by Abraham and was serving as the pseudo father of the groom in this instance.

Abraham’s servant sought God’s favor and direction. (vs. 14) So God was directly involved in leading the servant representing Abraham to find Rebekah for Isaac.

Rebekah’s parents acknowledged God working in the bringing of Abraham’s servant to meet Rebekah. (Vs. 50 and 51) So we can tell from this that it is advisable for family and authorities to bless the marriage of two people.

B. Is there a need for a wedding ceremony?

In verse 53 the Servant made a show of showering blessings upon Rebekah. The servant “brought out jewelry of silver, jewelry of gold, and clothing, and gave them to Rebekah. He also gave precious things to her brother and to her mother.” So there was indeed jewelry given to the bride as a sign of favor and commitment. So perhaps this idea of exchanging rings isn’t so foreign or just man’s tradition after all? It is in the Bible right… So, it must be applicable today.

In verse 54 we see there was a big celebration with eating and drinking. Eating a meal together back then, just as it is today, is a sign of friendship and fellowship.

The question was asked and answered if Rebekah would go with the servant and by implication become Isaac’s wife. (Vs. 58) In effect just as the servant was representing Abraham the servant was also representing Isaac. Therefore we can tell that there are to be witnesses and consent between both parties before the Lord.

The end result was Isaac and Rebekah were married as Rebekah became Isaac’s wife. (66-67)

The conclusion is this passage points to a series of events that led up to the marriage between Isaac and Rebekah: Man’s initiation, God’s blessing and direction, witnesses, celebration, giving of precious jewelry, fellowship as a new family, request and consent of parties involved, and finally consummation physically of marriage. The point being that the physical consummation of the marriage is the last part. It’s the end result but not the only thing that makes a marriage binding before God.

C. Is there a need for paperwork to be brought before government?

Perhaps we should look to the NT for this in 1 Peter 2:13-17 where we’re told to submit to the ordinances of man for the Lord’s sake. The argument becomes then if the state only determines a couple to be married with a piece of paper from a courthouse then we as Christians should follow this ordinance don’t you think? Plus it just takes what 15-20 minutes in most courthouses right?

1 Pet. 2:13-17

¹³ Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, ¹⁴ or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. ¹⁵ For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men— ¹⁶ as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. ¹⁷ Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

Jesus was a fan of marriage celebrations (John 2:1-2) and this is where He began his ministry in Galilee with the turning water to wine. (John 2:3-11)

John 2:1-2

¹ On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. ² Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.

Further, we should look at what living together in a relationship including a sexual nature really means. I would argue that it is fornication. Fornication is wrong period but especially wrong for Christians who are the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor. 6:18-20

¹⁸ Flee fornication. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits fornication sins against his own body. ¹⁹ Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? ²⁰ For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

From Dicitionary.com

http://dictionary.re...ornication?s=ts

Fornication Noun

1. voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other.

World English Dictionary - Collins

1. voluntary sexual intercourse outside marriage

2. law voluntary sexual intercourse between two persons of the opposite sex, where one is or both are unmarried

3. Bible sexual immorality in general, especially adultery

Feel free to agree or disagree. Your thoughts?

Jon, nice side step, now how about simply answering my question without all the extra stuff that doesn't prove or say anything.

• From this story we can tell there was Abraham’s instruction to his trusted servant.
  
• (1-4)Abraham’s servant sought God’s favor and direction.
  
• (vs. 14)We can also tell that Rebekah’s parents blessed the marriage as witnesses before God.
  
• (vs. 50 and 51)We can also tell her family asked Rebekah if she would go with Abraham’s servant.
  
• (vs. 58)The result was Isaac and Rebekah were married as Rebekah became Isaac’s wife. (66-67)
  

Please declare which of the above was necessary for God to recognize Isaac and Rebekah's marriage as a marriage. And if there was anything else necessary than what was presented in the story, please declare that I may understand.

It is very simple, you don't have to complicate the matter. If Isaac himself would have went and found his own wife would the marriage be null and void in Gods eyes? If not then, no it isn't necessary. If her parents had not given their blessing, was it not then a marriage in Gods eyes? If not then, no it isn't necessary. You might see where this is going but maybe not. Also, are you declaring then that this only applies if one is having an arranged marriage by ones parents? Jon, your lengthy explanation didn't really explain anything. Please, try again, I am a difficult student to teach.

Gary

This wasn't a side step. I spent about 1 to 1.5 hours this time alone studying the entire passage, praying, and thinking about what to say. Frankly, I believe I thoroughly discussed the passage. This was my third attempt to help you see that the passage in context doesn't say that all two people have to do is agree before God, husband & wife agree with each other, and have sexual relations to be married. Sorry.

So I'll turn the question back to you. What do you disagree with in my post? What did I not prove? Please support your opinion with the passage in question (Gen. 24) or other Biblical backing so I can understand what you're trying to get at.

[gdemoss]

Jon, I don't have anything left to offer, thanks.

Gary

[GoldenEagle]

Jon, I don't have anything left to offer, thanks.

Wow. A bit frustrated that what I wrote and backed up with scripture is labeled as...

all the extra stuff that doesn't prove or say anything

and

and "

Jon, your lengthy explanation didn't really explain anything."

Telling someone who disagrees with your view that what they presented doesn't prove anything or explain anything seems a bit... like saying "I don't like what you said." Am I reading this wrong?

Jon, nice side step, now how about simply answering my question without all the extra stuff that doesn't prove or say anything.

It is very simple, you don't have to complicate the matter. If Isaac himself would have went and found his own wife would the marriage be null and void in Gods eyes? If not then, no it isn't necessary. If her parents had not given their blessing, was it not then a marriage in Gods eyes? If not then, no it isn't necessary. You might see where this is going but maybe not. Also, are you declaring then that this only applies if one is having an arranged marriage by ones parents? Jon, your lengthy explanation didn't really explain anything.

My lengthy explanation didn't explain anything or you didn't agree with it? Lol. God's Word is still applicable today. If Isaac would've gone instead it would not have been null and void. Her parents didn't need to give their blessing but there needed to be witnesses of the marriage agreement. Also, there was a gifting of jewelry and a celebration. Finally, as I sated in 1 Pet. 2:13-17 we're commanded to submit ourselves to the ordinances of man - so while marriage is before God we should get married as Christians legally. Hopefully that makes things a bit clearer. Do you agree or no?

Please, try again, I am a difficult student to teach.

Difficult or stubborn? What my perception of this answer is that you don't agree with what I said but don't want to take the time to back it up. Well, I even put in bold what you asked originally on your post on Nov. 1, 2012 347pm. What do you say to these two answers to your questions in bold?

B. Is there a need for a wedding ceremony?

In verse 53 the Servant made a show of showering blessings upon Rebekah. The servant “brought out jewelry of silver, jewelry of gold, and clothing, and gave them to Rebekah. He also gave precious things to her brother and to her mother.” So there was indeed jewelry given to the bride as a sign of favor and commitment. So perhaps this idea of exchanging rings isn’t so foreign or just man’s tradition after all? It is in the Bible right… So, it must be applicable today.

In verse 54 we see there was a big celebration with eating and drinking. Eating a meal together back then, just as it is today, is a sign of friendship and fellowship.

C. Is there a need for paperwork to be brought before government?

Perhaps we should look to the NT for this in 1 Peter 2:13-17 where we’re told to submit to the ordinances of man for the Lord’s sake. The argument becomes then if the state only determines a couple to be married with a piece of paper from a courthouse then we as Christians should follow this ordinance don’t you think? Plus it just takes what 15-20 minutes in most courthouses right?

1 Pet. 2:13-17

¹³ Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, ¹⁴ or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. ¹⁵ For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men— ¹⁶ as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. ¹⁷ Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.