I. Legalism: Defined

[gdemoss]

You believe that divisions must exist in order to show who is approved by God.

Hi Sister SS, this is not aimed at you but merely seeking to discuss what popped out at me when I read this part of what you presented for dialog. Cheers!

And what might make someone think that the purpose of division (which comes about through heresy which is a work of the flesh according to Galatians 5) is to show who is approved by God?

There is direct evidence for that as a purpose.

1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

To be one who is shown approved by God I believe this is a must:

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The truly approved of God are shown approved by God himself:

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

I think we would all do well to take heed unto what the scriptures say.

[Sevenseas]

Hi Gary

Would you please put that in context for me...ie the post number and is it in this thread? Sorry...but I have alot going on right now (nothing bad....just getting ready for the upcoming season

at our little gallery) and I'm kinda distracted, but I will be glad to discuss with you thanks

[GoldenEagle]

Something else I've pondered -

When it comes to sin-obsession, ever notice how the obsession is with not drinking, not cussing, attire, and the like; but things like hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions are not even on the radar?

Consider, how many churches ever split over cussers vs non-cussers?

But how many have split up on account of hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and the like?

Right on, Neb.

The reason all the hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and the like are so prevalent is that the enemy is a master at distraction. He'll have everyone so focused on the not cussing, not smoking, not drinking, etc. that everyone's attention is on that stuff and not what's really important, like the fruits of the Spirit.

Are you saying that it is ok to curse, smoke, and drink, or even if you aren't going that far, are you saying it is not serious???

I don't agree with what Nebula said. If those things are going on in a church, it will tear it up. I was a member of a church that split up over the very things she said don't normally cause a church to split. There was inner turmoil due to a power struggle. There was hatred, jealousy, temper tantrums, selfish ambition, dissensions and factions. A church that was growing and running about 80 fell off to less than half that number over those very things. It wasn't over clothing, drinking or smoking, though there had been disagreement over those things in the past. None of those things harmed the church growth. The split came because of a trouble maker who got on the deacon board and wanted everything his own way. There was one fight over the piano the church bought. They got a good deal on a baby grand piano, better than they would have gotten on a regular piano, and some claimed it looked tacky. The reason why there are arguments over things like cursing, tobacco and alcohol, if those are being argued over, is because that is where the problem lies in that particular church. BTW, I have never seen any church split over cursing verses non-cursing.

I believe cursing is not a good thing. Drinking in moderation isn't a sin. And smoking in my opininon is not a good habit. I think "hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and the like" are a sign that a church is not being led by the Holy Spirit. Would you agree on that?

I've heard of a church split over the color of the sanctuary carpet...

Sometimes people major or focus on the minor things in life.

God bless,

GE

[gdemoss]

Hi Gary

Would you please put that in context for me...ie the post number and is it in this thread? Sorry...but I have alot going on right now (nothing bad....just getting ready for the upcoming season

at our little gallery) and I'm kinda distracted, but I will be glad to discuss with you thanks

Was from post #209

[Guest]

Something else I've pondered -

When it comes to sin-obsession, ever notice how the obsession is with not drinking, not cussing, attire, and the like; but things like hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions are not even on the radar?

Consider, how many churches ever split over cussers vs non-cussers?

But how many have split up on account of hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and the like?

Right on, Neb.

The reason all the hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and the like are so prevalent is that the enemy is a master at distraction. He'll have everyone so focused on the not cussing, not smoking, not drinking, etc. that everyone's attention is on that stuff and not what's really important, like the fruits of the Spirit.

Are you saying that it is ok to curse, smoke, and drink, or even if you aren't going that far, are you saying it is not serious???

<snip>

Butero, I never said those things were not important, so please don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say. What I meant was that we have an enemy who is very good at getting us focused on the wrong things, or so out of balance that things can get ridiculous. There is such a thing as balance, and that can be lacking in an individual's life and also in a congregation. And yes, I've seen church splits over some of the stupidest things that I left one I was visiting and never went back. They split over the the color of the carpet in the sanctuary, believe it or not. I will also say that the cussing, smoking, and drinking tend to fade with time as a person grows in Christ. A harvest takes time and so does sanctification -- and we all grow at different rates.

[Sevenseas]

Hi Gary

Would you please put that in context for me...ie the post number and is it in this thread? Sorry...but I have alot going on right now (nothing bad....just getting ready for the upcoming season

at our little gallery) and I'm kinda distracted, but I will be glad to discuss with you thanks

Was from post #209

Oh...didn't have to go very far...must have been a forest in the way

Was actually a quote from the site I linked to

So here is the entire quote because I find it makes more sense in context:

a legalist is: Divisive: You spend concerted effort trying to convince other people that your interpretation of God’s Word is correct, often leading to quarrels over words or disputing. You love to stir up controversy, accuse other people of sin, and paint people with a broad brush of condemnation. You believe that divisions must exist in order to show who is approved by God.

This:

The truly approved of God are shown approved by God himself:

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

I think we would all do well to take heed unto what the scriptures say.

That is so...disagreeing on something does not necessairly have to cause division....but I believe there is a spirit behind those who work such things and they usually do not see themselves

as the problem ~ it is everyone around them. That spirit comes from the place the Bible says it comes from

Growing together obviously means there will growing pains....but as Jesus said, whoa to the one who leads even one of these little ones astray...(speaking about children but we are also

called little children in the NT by John)

Many people handle the Word...and God has not called them to do so....well anyway, I guess that's enough (and nothing in here directed at you)

and of course even pointing such things out will most likely result in stones being hurled....again...well, there is always the shield of faith (in God) and the breastplate of righteousness

[nebula]

I heard an interesting sermon tonight. The man wasn't talking about legalism directly, but he said some things that I thought would apply.

Are you sin-conscious, or are you righteousness-conscious?

Are you focusing on sin, are you looking towards sin? Or are you focusing on righteousness, are you looking towards righteousness?

A legalist , I think, is one who is more concerned with sin than with righteousness. That is, they believe righteousness is achieved by eradicating sin - thus they are always focused on sin, pursuing sin, conscious of sin, battling sin.

But the life of Christ receives the righteousness of Christ, embracing His righteousness as his/her own, seeing him/herself through the lens of Christ's righteousness, and seeing others through the lens of Christ's righteousness.

[saved34]

Something else I've pondered -

When it comes to sin-obsession, ever notice how the obsession is with not drinking, not cussing, attire, and the like; but things like hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions are not even on the radar?

Consider, how many churches ever split over cussers vs non-cussers?

But how many have split up on account of hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and the like?

Neb, this is the crux of the whole matter. Many of us focus on the "popular" sins, but are completely blind to many of the "works of the flesh" you just named. Those things are just as dangerous as the "popular' sins that folks like to harp over, yet many times they go unchecked. I agree that our focus should be about building one another up, loving one another, and being merciful to each other as Christ has been merciful to us. These are the things that should occupy our walk in Christ. I do not think God has called us to be professional fruit inspectors (except in the case of teachers). We should always look to uphold the brethren and restore any of our brothers or sisters who may have fallen.