Jump to content
IGNORED

New City Jerusalem


DiscipleDave777

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,543
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,428
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

Shalom, Bold Believer.

The NEW JERUSALEM is the redeemed. The cube like description given in Scripture isn't literal, but rather a concept of perfection. Perfect in height, width and length. The New Earth will have no sea. Anything outside of the New Jerusalem is the Lake of Fire, just as Ge-enna was outside of the literal city.

No, that's NOT right! The New Jerusalem, Yerushalayim haChadashah in Hebrew, will be a huge, literal city that descends to the New Earth AFTER the Fire's renovation of the earth. It's not "cube-like"; it will most likely be pyramidal because of its size! Everything outside of the New Jerusalem, God's HOUSE, will be the beautiful New Earth, God's BACKYARD! Just because Yochanan noted that there was "no more sea" does not mean that there will be no more WATER! To the contrary, he may have simply been talking about the Mediterranean Sea that was separating him from his loved ones in Yeshua` who were on the mainland of Asia Minor, today known as Turkey. Indeed, if the New Jerusalem is centered upon the coordinates for the Old City, its weight will raise the surrounding land, creating new hills and mountains and drive the Mediterranean Sea back to the Atlantic! Furthermore, the Water of Life will flow out of the twelve gateways of the city, which will then always stand open as the twelve gates are permanently rolled away from their entrances. There WILL be water on the New Earth! Furthermore, the New Jerusalem will dwarf any mountain on the face of the earth, new or old!

With a city that is 1,500 miles by 1,500 miles sitting on a square surface; that is, it covers a square footprint - it "LIETH FOURSQUARE" - we're talking about a structure that has a 6,000-mile perimeter! Having only twelve gates, that means that the distance between gates from center of gate to center of gate will be 500 MILES, even around a corner! We are also told that this city will be aligned with north for the city has four sides, each one related to one of the four compass directions. (This confirms that the city will land, btw.) We are also told that there will be three gates on each side. This uses the model of the city described by Yechezk'el (Ezekiel) that Yeshua` will build during the Millennium found in Ezekiel 48:30-35:

Ezekiel 48:30-35

30 And these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures.

31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.

32 And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.

33 And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun.

34 At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali.

35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there. (Hebrew: YHWH shaamah).

KJV

Revelation 21:10-16

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven (Greek: ouranos = the "sky") from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs (Greek: stadioi = Latin: stadia; 1 stadios = 1 stadium = 660 feet). The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

KJV

12,000 stadioi x (660 feet / 1 stadios) x (1 mile / 5,280 feet) = 1,500 miles.

Thus, I believe that the New Jerusalem will have a similar construction. From the northwest corner going eastward, one will have 250 miles and then the gate of Re`uven. There will be another 500 miles and then the gate of Y'hudah. There will be another 500 miles and then the gate of Leviy, and then 250 more miles to the northeast corner. Going south from the northeast corner, one will have another 250 miles and then the gate of Yosef. There will be another 500 miles and then the gate of Bin-Yamiyn. There will be another 500 miles and then the gate of Dan, and then 250 miles to the southeast corner. From the southeast corner going westward, one will have 250 miles and then the gate of Shim`own. There will be another 500 miles and then the gate of Yissachar. After another 500 miles from there, will be the third gate of Z'vulun, and then 250 more miles will lead one to the southwest corner. Going north from that corner 250 miles one will come to the gate of Gad. After another 500 miles from that gate, there will be the middle gate of Asher. After another 500 miles northward, one will come to the gate of Naftaliy, and 250 miles more, one will come to where the journey began at the northwest corner of the city!

Furthermore, this city is said to be 1,500 miles HIGH! Since Mount Everest is only 5.5 miles high, we're talking about a city that is 272.7 times higher than the highest peak on the present earth! First, I believe that the New Earth will be a renovation of the present earth, much as the present earth was a renovation of the antediluvian earth, the earth before the Flood of Noah's time. As such, the dimensions will not change significantly. So, I believe that the New Earth will have about a 24,902-mile circumference as the present earth does.

This means that 1,500 miles will cover 1,500 miles / 24,902 miles x 360 degrees = 21.685 degrees of the earth's circumference! That means several things: First, that the direction for "down" on one side of the city will be 21.685 degrees different than the direction for "down" on the opposite side of the city! (This is why a cube won't work. It will either not be truly cubical or it won't look cubical.) Second, that means that the direction for "down" in the center of the city will be 21.685 / 2 = 10.8425 degrees different than "down" at the center of any of the four sides of the city. Third, that means that some of the gates won't even be in the same time zone as other gates! (Each time zone is roughly 15 degrees.) Fourth, consider this: since we are talking about the curvature of the earth as the earth "falls away" from the plain assumed as "level" at the center of the city, it will be even MORE pronounced at the corners of the city! Thus, a much greater number of degrees separates the center to a corner and from corner to opposite corner!

Finally, we are talking about a four-sided pyramid (I believe) that is 1,500 miles high at the pinnacle Take a nail and a globe and use the mileage scale on the globe to determine how long 1,500 miles would be. (My globe uses 660 miles = 1 inch; therefore, my nail needs to be at least 1,500 miles x (1 inch / 660 miles) = 2 3/11 inches long.) Center the nail at Jerusalem with that height to the head, attempting to keep it perpendicular to the earth's surface at that point and then tilt the globe around from various points of view to see when you lose being able to see the top of the nail. This is the distance in that direction that you could still see the pinnacle of the city from the surface of the earth! I can still see it from portions of Morocco, and eastern China, east and west, and from north and south, from Norway to Zimbabwe! ALL OF THIS TERRITORY can directly see the pinnacle of the city! Even beyond that, the light of the city will still be visible! If Yeshua`s light will "outshine the sun," even WITH a sun, the Sun of Righteousness will drive out the night from that side of the earth! That's why I SO enjoy this verse:

Isaiah 24:23

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

KJV

Even though we are told that "the city will have no need for the sun or the moon," we are NOT told that there will be no more sun or moon, nor are we told that the rest of the earth won't have need for the sun or the moon. This verse uses personification, but if we take away the personification, it tells us that the moon shall be mixed up (in its phases) and the sun shall be outdone for brightness! How neat is it going to be to see TWO phases on the moon at once, based on its position relative to the sun and relative to the New Jerusalem?!

Don't be so quick to give up on the literal point of view!

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  121
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  1,931
  • Content Per Day:  0.35
  • Reputation:   126
  • Days Won:  8
  • Joined:  01/22/2009
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  07/13/1955

Shalom, Bold Believer.

The NEW JERUSALEM is the redeemed. The cube like description given in Scripture isn't literal, but rather a concept of perfection. Perfect in height, width and length. The New Earth will have no sea. Anything outside of the New Jerusalem is the Lake of Fire, just as Ge-enna was outside of the literal city.

No, that's NOT right! The New Jerusalem, Yerushalayim haChadashah in Hebrew, will be a huge, literal city that descends to the New Earth AFTER the Fire's renovation of the earth. It's not "cube-like"; it will most likely be pyramidal because of its size! Everything outside of the New Jerusalem, God's HOUSE, will be the beautiful New Earth, God's BACKYARD! Just because Yochanan noted that there was "no more sea" does not mean that there will be no more WATER! To the contrary, he may have simply been talking about the Mediterranean Sea that was separating him from his loved ones in Yeshua` who were on the mainland of Asia Minor, today known as Turkey. Indeed, if the New Jerusalem is centered upon the coordinates for the Old City, its weight will raise the surrounding land, creating new hills and mountains and drive the Mediterranean Sea back to the Atlantic! Furthermore, the Water of Life will flow out of the twelve gateways of the city, which will then always stand open as the twelve gates are permanently rolled away from their entrances. There WILL be water on the New Earth! Furthermore, the New Jerusalem will dwarf any mountain on the face of the earth, new or old!

With a city that is 1,500 miles by 1,500 miles sitting on a square surface; that is, it covers a square footprint - it "LIETH FOURSQUARE" - we're talking about a structure that has a 6,000-mile perimeter! Having only twelve gates, that means that the distance between gates from center of gate to center of gate will be 500 MILES, even around a corner! We are also told that this city will be aligned with north for the city has four sides, each one related to one of the four compass directions. (This confirms that the city will land, btw.) We are also told that there will be three gates on each side. This uses the model of the city described by Yechezk'el (Ezekiel) that Yeshua` will build during the Millennium found in Ezekiel 48:30-35:

Ezekiel 48:30-35

30 And these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures.

31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.

32 And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.

33 And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun.

34 At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali.

35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there. (Hebrew: YHWH shaamah).

KJV

Revelation 21:10-16

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven (Greek: ouranos = the "sky") from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs (Greek: stadioi = Latin: stadia; 1 stadios = 1 stadium = 660 feet). The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

KJV

12,000 stadioi x (660 feet / 1 stadios) x (1 mile / 5,280 feet) = 1,500 miles.

Thus, I believe that the New Jerusalem will have a similar construction. From the northwest corner going eastward, one will have 250 miles and then the gate of Re`uven. There will be another 500 miles and then the gate of Y'hudah. There will be another 500 miles and then the gate of Leviy, and then 250 more miles to the northeast corner. Going south from the northeast corner, one will have another 250 miles and then the gate of Yosef. There will be another 500 miles and then the gate of Bin-Yamiyn. There will be another 500 miles and then the gate of Dan, and then 250 miles to the southeast corner. From the southeast corner going westward, one will have 250 miles and then the gate of Shim`own. There will be another 500 miles and then the gate of Yissachar. After another 500 miles from there, will be the third gate of Z'vulun, and then 250 more miles will lead one to the southwest corner. Going north from that corner 250 miles one will come to the gate of Gad. After another 500 miles from that gate, there will be the middle gate of Asher. After another 500 miles northward, one will come to the gate of Naftaliy, and 250 miles more, one will come to where the journey began at the northwest corner of the city!

Furthermore, this city is said to be 1,500 miles HIGH! Since Mount Everest is only 5.5 miles high, we're talking about a city that is 272.7 times higher than the highest peak on the present earth! First, I believe that the New Earth will be a renovation of the present earth, much as the present earth was a renovation of the antediluvian earth, the earth before the Flood of Noah's time. As such, the dimensions will not change significantly. So, I believe that the New Earth will have about a 24,902-mile circumference as the present earth does.

This means that 1,500 miles will cover 1,500 miles / 24,902 miles x 360 degrees = 21.685 degrees of the earth's circumference! That means several things: First, that the direction for "down" on one side of the city will be 21.685 degrees different than the direction for "down" on the opposite side of the city! (This is why a cube won't work. It will either not be truly cubical or it won't look cubical.) Second, that means that the direction for "down" in the center of the city will be 21.685 / 2 = 10.8425 degrees different than "down" at the center of any of the four sides of the city. Third, that means that some of the gates won't even be in the same time zone as other gates! (Each time zone is roughly 15 degrees.) Fourth, consider this: since we are talking about the curvature of the earth as the earth "falls away" from the plain assumed as "level" at the center of the city, it will be even MORE pronounced at the corners of the city! Thus, a much greater number of degrees separates the center to a corner and from corner to opposite corner!

Finally, we are talking about a four-sided pyramid (I believe) that is 1,500 miles high at the pinnacle Take a nail and a globe and use the mileage scale on the globe to determine how long 1,500 miles would be. (My globe uses 660 miles = 1 inch; therefore, my nail needs to be at least 1,500 miles x (1 inch / 660 miles) = 2 3/11 inches long.) Center the nail at Jerusalem with that height to the head, attempting to keep it perpendicular to the earth's surface at that point and then tilt the globe around from various points of view to see when you lose being able to see the top of the nail. This is the distance in that direction that you could still see the pinnacle of the city from the surface of the earth! I can still see it from portions of Morocco, and eastern China, east and west, and from north and south, from Norway to Zimbabwe! ALL OF THIS TERRITORY can directly see the pinnacle of the city! Even beyond that, the light of the city will still be visible! If Yeshua`s light will "outshine the sun," even WITH a sun, the Sun of Righteousness will drive out the night from that side of the earth! That's why I SO enjoy this verse:

Isaiah 24:23

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

KJV

Even though we are told that "the city will have no need for the sun or the moon," we are NOT told that there will be no more sun or moon, nor are we told that the rest of the earth won't have need for the sun or the moon. This verse uses personification, but if we take away the personification, it tells us that the moon shall be mixed up (in its phases) and the sun shall be outdone for brightness! How neat is it going to be to see TWO phases on the moon at once, based on its position relative to the sun and relative to the New Jerusalem?!

Don't be so quick to give up on the literal point of view!

In all of what you write, the most interesting thing is that the city spans EVERY KNOWN PEOPLE GROUP, light skinned Norwegian/Scandinavians, dark skinned Africans, brown skinned Middle Easterners and Indians, red skinned Native Americans and yellow skinned Asians, when you draw out the geometric figure. God's CHURCH is composed of every people group. Hebrews 12:22 tells us that we've come to the heavenly Jerusalem. I still don't follow the pyramid analogy, since Yochannan describes it as a cube, but he's not describing a literal city. It's real, composed of real people, and when it comes down, it will occupy space on the New Earth, but I still believe the cube of equal measurements refers to the perfection of those just men made perfect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,543
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,428
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

Shalom, Bold Believer.

...

In all of what you write, the most interesting thing is that the city spans EVERY KNOWN PEOPLE GROUP, light skinned Norwegian/Scandinavians, dark skinned Africans, brown skinned Middle Easterners and Indians, red skinned Native Americans and yellow skinned Asians, when you draw out the geometric figure. God's CHURCH is composed of every people group. Hebrews 12:22 tells us that we've come to the heavenly Jerusalem. I still don't follow the pyramid analogy, since Yochannan describes it as a cube, but he's not describing a literal city. It's real, composed of real people, and when it comes down, it will occupy space on the New Earth, but I still believe the cube of equal measurements refers to the perfection of those just men made perfect.

LOL! Out of all that I wrote, THAT'S what you came away with?! Yochanan did NOT "describe it as a cube!" He merely said that it "LIETH FOURSQUARE," meaning that it has four square (right) angles and covers a square footprint, and that its length and width and height are all the same length, 12,000 furlongs or 1,500 miles. That's IT! He NEVER said it was a cube! That's only what some people ASSUME because they don't understand the "lieth foursquare" part! And, don't just assume the same thing because of some fictional, made-up allegorical interpretation you prefer to the literal interpretation of chapters 21 and 22! Stop being so superficially superstitious to call it a "spiritual" interpretation and use the UNRELATED PHRASE, "perfection of those just men made perfect!" GET YOUR FEET BACK ON THE GROUND!

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  22
  • Topic Count:  1,294
  • Topics Per Day:  0.21
  • Content Count:  31,762
  • Content Per Day:  5.26
  • Reputation:   9,760
  • Days Won:  115
  • Joined:  09/14/2007
  • Status:  Offline

I have always wondered how the length, breadth and heigth can be equal that the top of a pyramid?

Revelation 21:16

The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jesus spoke in parables, hyperbole, figurative language. He used simile's and hardly ever spoke in straightforward language. When the Disciples asked Him why - what did He say? Likewise a lot of OT prophesy was also concealed in figurative language. The bottom line is that Jesus does not want part of his audience to understand the Message. And they didn't - for example: the religious leaders of His day didn't have a clue about Him being the Messiah despite the fact that the OT is loaded with types and shadows of Jesus. The Disciples also before Pentecost 30AD thought in a very soulish way (literal.) They did not understand a lot of what He was doing and saying. However after Pentecost this seems to have changed. Jesus always spoke directly to the spirit of the individual – after all he said his words were spirit and truth.

It was a scribe or copiest who wrote the first three verses of Revelation and he stated that John had "SIGNIFIED" the book - in other words it was put into symbolic or Apocalyptic language. So we can't take the book as literal. God in the OT writes much of Prophesy in this coded language meant for the remnant of Israel (His true followers) and not the proud and haughty. Here is the pattern that I find in scripture. God inserts outrageous comments into the text to show his remnant that he is not speaking literally. When Jesus was using an idiom to describe His second coming he states that the stars will fall from heaven. This is a technical impossibility - so from that we understand that He is using an idiom and it is not literal. Zechariah said that “all nations would come against Israel" – not possible in history or in our future so it is not a literal war that he is talking about. He further states that Egypt will have no rain – it doesn't rain in Egypt as it is totally watered by the Nile. And there are many more.

So when this city comes down out of heaven, which is 1,500 mils cubed - then you know that this is symbolic and not literal. Where did the governments of the world come from? Up from the earth and sea – the government of God came down from heaven. This city is cubed – just like the Holy of Holies, the Temple building, and the Temple and Temple Mount of Herod was. This is symbolic of the government and residence of God – the New Covenant people who are the stones that construct this temple. There is no way that a 1,500 mile cubed city will alight on Jerusalem in the future.

Why is it impossible for all the nations of the world to turn against Israel? Why is it impossible for God to actually recreate the heavens and earth that would house a 1500 cubic city? Seems to me that since you don't understand that He can and will, you just suggest it is symbolic.

Oh

Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. Daniel 7:23

No!

The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. Zechariah 12:1-3

Teeny Tiny Minds

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8-9

With Teeny Tiny Gods

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John. Revelation 1:1

Make Teeny Tiny Futures

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Revelation 20:7-11

Out Of Teeny Tiny Symbols

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Revelation 21:1-5

~

Get Jesus

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

And Know The Power Of God

And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 22:3-5

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  0
  • Topics Per Day:  0
  • Content Count:  40
  • Content Per Day:  0.01
  • Reputation:   31
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  03/27/2012
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  02/17/1942

Jesus spoke in parables, hyperbole, figurative language. He used simile's and hardly ever spoke in straightforward language. When the Disciples asked Him why - what did He say? Likewise a lot of OT prophesy was also concealed in figurative language. The bottom line is that Jesus does not want part of his audience to understand the Message. And they didn't - for example: the religious leaders of His day didn't have a clue about Him being the Messiah dispite the fact that the OT is loaded with types and shadows of Jesus. The Disciples also before Pentecost 30AD thought in a very soulish way (literal.) They did not understand a lot of what He was doing and saying. However after Pentecost this seems to have changed. Jesus always spoke directly to the spirit of the individual – after all he said his words were spirit and truth.

It was a scribe or copiest who wrote the first three verses of Revelation and he stated that John had "SIGNIFIED" the book - in other words it was put into symbolic or Apocalyptic language. So we can't take the book as literal. God in the OT writes much of Prophesy in this coded language meant for the remnant of Israel (His true followers) and not the proud and haughty. Here is the pattern that I find in scripture. God inserts outrageous comments into the text to show his remnant that he is not speaking literally. When Jesus was using an idiom to describe His second coming he states that the stars will fall from heaven. This is a technical impossibility - so from that we understand that He is using an idiom and it is not literal. Zechariah said that “all nations would come against Israel" – not possible inhistory or in our future so it is not a literal war that he is talking about. He further states that Egypt will have no rain – it doesn't rain in Egypt as it is totally watered by the Nile. And there are many more.

So when this city comes down out of heaven, which is 1,500 mils cubed - then you know that this is symbolic and not literal. Where did the governments of the world come from? Up from the earth and sea – the government of God came down from heaven. This city is cubed – just like the Holy of Holies, the Temple building, and the Temple and Temple Mount of Herod was. This is symbolic of the government and residence of God – the New Covenant people who are the stones that construct this temple. There is no way that a 1,500 mile cubed city will alight on Jerusalem in the future.

Why is it impossible for all the nations of the world to turn against Israel? Why is it impossible for God to actually recreate the heavens and earth that would house a 1500 cubic city? Seems to me that since you don't understand that He can and will, you just suggest it is symbolic.

That's one of the convient things about being a Futurist - since everything is literal and in the future how can anything they say be proven wrong? In all of history I don't find a single case where "All the nations" ever came against Israel. Nor is it possible in the future because there are 196 countries in the world today. There is only one place in history where all of the nations came against Israel and that was at the time of the crucifixion. At that time God brought all the nations against Israel where he condemned them all to death and destroyed them all - spiritually. Spiritual is eternal and humans are just temporal. God is more concerned about forever and worked for about 4,000 years to set up and implement his plan of salvation - this was his most important objective in history. This judgment is spoken of symbolically in Isaiah chapter 63.

You can't prove a Futurist wrong when he puts everything in the future, but in the instances that they have set dates - they were all proven wrong. As I have often said - you cannot name even one Futurist speculation that has come to pass in the last 60 years - no not one. And so the credibility of the Futurist is measured from past history and not on their sensational, exciting and spectacular claims for the future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  19
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  3,131
  • Content Per Day:  0.69
  • Reputation:   1,091
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  11/03/2011
  • Status:  Offline

But, When ones puts all in or around 70 AD; It definately can be proved false. One MUST make Scripture anything but literal. When red is red, it is red. When 1000 years is 1000 years, it is 1000 years. When 1/4 of the earths population is destroyed, 1/4 is destroyed. When 1/3 of the earths population is destroyed, 1/3 is destroyed. Whenthe locust from the abyss last 5 months, they last 5 months.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  121
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  1,931
  • Content Per Day:  0.35
  • Reputation:   126
  • Days Won:  8
  • Joined:  01/22/2009
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  07/13/1955

I have always wondered how the length, breadth and heigth can be equal that the top of a pyramid?

Revelation 21:16

The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal.

This verse is what leads me to think 'cube' and not pyramid.

Jesus spoke in parables, hyperbole, figurative language. He used simile's and hardly ever spoke in straightforward language. When the Disciples asked Him why - what did He say? Likewise a lot of OT prophesy was also concealed in figurative language. The bottom line is that Jesus does not want part of his audience to understand the Message. And they didn't - for example: the religious leaders of His day didn't have a clue about Him being the Messiah dispite the fact that the OT is loaded with types and shadows of Jesus. The Disciples also before Pentecost 30AD thought in a very soulish way (literal.) They did not understand a lot of what He was doing and saying. However after Pentecost this seems to have changed. Jesus always spoke directly to the spirit of the individual – after all he said his words were spirit and truth.

It was a scribe or copiest who wrote the first three verses of Revelation and he stated that John had "SIGNIFIED" the book - in other words it was put into symbolic or Apocalyptic language. So we can't take the book as literal. God in the OT writes much of Prophesy in this coded language meant for the remnant of Israel (His true followers) and not the proud and haughty. Here is the pattern that I find in scripture. God inserts outrageous comments into the text to show his remnant that he is not speaking literally. When Jesus was using an idiom to describe His second coming he states that the stars will fall from heaven. This is a technical impossibility - so from that we understand that He is using an idiom and it is not literal. Zechariah said that “all nations would come against Israel" – not possible inhistory or in our future so it is not a literal war that he is talking about. He further states that Egypt will have no rain – it doesn't rain in Egypt as it is totally watered by the Nile. And there are many more.

So when this city comes down out of heaven, which is 1,500 mils cubed - then you know that this is symbolic and not literal. Where did the governments of the world come from? Up from the earth and sea – the government of God came down from heaven. This city is cubed – just like the Holy of Holies, the Temple building, and the Temple and Temple Mount of Herod was. This is symbolic of the government and residence of God – the New Covenant people who are the stones that construct this temple. There is no way that a 1,500 mile cubed city will alight on Jerusalem in the future.

Why is it impossible for all the nations of the world to turn against Israel? Why is it impossible for God to actually recreate the heavens and earth that would house a 1500 cubic city? Seems to me that since you don't understand that He can and will, you just suggest it is symbolic.

That's one of the convient things about being a Futurist - since everything is literal and in the future how can anything they say be proven wrong? In all of history I don't find a single case where "All the nations" ever came against Israel. Nor is it possible in the future because there are 196 countries in the world today. There is only one place in history where all of the nations came against Israel and that was at the time of the crucifixion. At that time God brought all the nations against Israel where he condemned them all to death and destroyed them all - spiritually. Spiritual is eternal and humans are just temporal. God is more concerned about forever and worked for about 4,000 years to set up and implement his plan of salvation - this was his most important objective in history. This judgment is spoken of symbolically in Isaiah chapter 63.

You can't prove a Futurist wrong when he puts everything in the future, but in the instances that they have set dates - they were all proven wrong. As I have often said - you cannot name even one Futurist speculation that has come to pass in the last 60 years - no not one. And so the credibility of the Futurist is measured from past history and not on their sensational, exciting and spectacular claims for the future.

How do you understand Revelation 20, Sonseeahray? I'm not a pre-millenialist, I understand most of Revelation as having past, being fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and the millennium having begun after that destruction and it also being fulfilled and where we are on the timeline as about Rev 20:9 with Gog leading Magog against us. Most everyone else here is pre-millennial and futurist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  121
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  1,931
  • Content Per Day:  0.35
  • Reputation:   126
  • Days Won:  8
  • Joined:  01/22/2009
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  07/13/1955

But, When ones puts all in or around 70 AD; It definately can be proved false. One MUST make Scripture anything but literal. When red is red, it is red. When 1000 years is 1000 years, it is 1000 years. When 1/4 of the earths population is destroyed, 1/4 is destroyed. When 1/3 of the earths population is destroyed, 1/3 is destroyed. Whenthe locust from the abyss last 5 months, they last 5 months.

In Christ

Montana Marv

It's where we place those events IN TIME, Marv. I don't disagree that these things happened. Also, remember that the word for 'earth' may also be translated 'the land' and therefore referring to the land of Israel.

All of the disagreements we have are primarily about TIMELINES and some about understanding and interpretation of language.

Would it surprise you Marv, that the actual siege of Jerusalem lasted....5 months? It took the Roman armies quite a long time to build a siege mound and surround the city in order to enter it. Or that a Roman soldier would have had a helmet, long hair, a breastplate and a weapon that could be understood as a 'stinger in his tail'. And the idea of a king being over him from the bottomless pit dovetails with the fact that the devil (dragon) was the power behind Rome. An attacking army of men seems to those being attacked like a locust horde.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  59
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  4,402
  • Content Per Day:  0.99
  • Reputation:   2,154
  • Days Won:  28
  • Joined:  02/10/2012
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  04/26/1971

But, When ones puts all in or around 70 AD; It definately can be proved false. One MUST make Scripture anything but literal. When red is red, it is red. When 1000 years is 1000 years, it is 1000 years. When 1/4 of the earths population is destroyed, 1/4 is destroyed. When 1/3 of the earths population is destroyed, 1/3 is destroyed. Whenthe locust from the abyss last 5 months, they last 5 months.

In Christ

Montana Marv

How is one supposed to know when they are to understand something literally rather than spiritually? I have had issues with my understanding because of this very problem. How to explicitly know when the sea is simply water in large basins as opposed to the sea of humanity that knows not God? How do I know if the world to come will not have large bodies of water as in there was no more sea or if that text is actually saying that the whole earth is filled with the knowledge of God and there be no more living who has not this knowledge? I personally have difficulty discerning the two. When is wheat simply food that grows out of the ground and not the elect of God? Oil is oil instead of the anointing? Wine only wine instead of the Holy Spirit of God? When is a bow a bow of peace as in the rainbow and not a bow of war?

I have certain inner convictions about these things that lead me to believe a certain train of events is on the horizon and coming to pass in short order. I also understand that God himself said that he will send a delusion that those who love not the truth would believe a lie instead and be damned. All of these things like the New City Jerusalem are a part of that which is spoken of. Many times through out the bible Jerusalem is spoken of as the inhabitants themselves and not the land. One must have a concrete way of discerning when it is one or when it is the other. The New City Jerusalem being labeled a bride for her husband seems to speak to me as it does with personification. It is spoken of to have had a certain foundation and all that but even we as people have been called precious stones in Gods temple. Gold, silver and precious stones yet in Jerusalem the streets are paved with gold.

So what key do you use to understand the when what is what in the scripture?

Gary

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...